RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 21, 2015 19:20:23 GMT -8
My next step would be to replace the rear interior side wall paneling, but I had reservations on my assessment of the plywood sub floor condition. Instead I decided to scrape off more of the remaining vinyl flooring to better see the rest of the plywood. If I were going to keep the original plywood sub floor the vinyl would have to come off anyways. I removed another piece of the ceiling, then the tall cabinet and set to work on the vinyl.  Rot behind street side wheel well.  Rot behind curb side wheel well:  Rot at side of street side wheel well:  Rot at street side front corner:  Rot at entry door:  While the rot wasn't extensive, it was enough that I would have to do something about it. In addition, the floor had a considerable sag in the middle at each end, there was a weird hump at the rear of the street side wheel well, plus the same wheel well was installed very much out of plumb and would make it difficult for the new wall paneling to fit flush up against it. The other thing was the more I thought about it, the more I felt that the plywood, fiberboard, belly pan floor system was the primary cause of the plywood sub floor rot. With this system, any water that leaks into the floor is trapped by the belly pan and saturates the fiberboard which cannot dry out so it eventually rots the plywood. While I understand that the original floor system was designed to provide underbody protection, sound deadening and perhaps a little insulation, I have to wonder if this was a solution to a theoretical concern that in practicality doesn’t really exist. I could patch the rotted plywood sections and perhaps better execute the installation to prevent water intrusion, but this would require adding backing which would have to be somehow tied into the underbody framing plus a lot of time and effort. Also when finished, it would look like the hack job it would have been and I still could never be sure that the fiberboard was staying dry as there would still be no way to inspect it. So, I decided to remove the entire floor system and take the trailer down to the frame. |
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 22, 2015 9:43:57 GMT -8
With the decision made to take it down to the frame, the body had to be removed next. If you have seen John Palmer's recent frame off thread, you will soon see that I had to do this much differently. I'm sure others have done it this way before, maybe somewhere in the foggy recesses of my brain there was a faint recollection that lead me to the idea. When I started the project I had no intention of going this far so the trailer was tucked into a tight space in the shop to take up as little room as possible. In order to roll the frame out from under the body, the trailer needed to be completely turned around. Problem was, I had the trailer frame on jack stands with the body framing supported with braces and 3/4 of the sides already separated from the floor framing. I needed to re-support the trailer body before I could turn it around. First I removed the remaining water and propane lines.  Next, holes were cut in the paneling at matching stud locations and a couple 2x4’s slipped in across the floor through the body.    Where the siding was still attached to the floor framing, from inside the trailer I cut through the paneling along the floor with my multi-tool.  Then from the outside, where I had cut through the plywood, the nails that fastened the wall studs to the sill plate were pulled, then I screwed the 2x4's to the wall studs.  Next, pieces of scrap plywood spanning both 2x4’s were set on top of them and screwed to the studs for added strength and to maintain the body’s shape. The body was now secured so the floor braces could be removed.   The trailer was then raised off the jacks and re-positioned.   |
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 22, 2015 13:24:59 GMT -8
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Post by vikx on Apr 22, 2015 22:21:34 GMT -8
Thank you so much for your insight and postings. It will help everyone.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 23, 2015 5:56:24 GMT -8
Thank you so much for your insight and postings. It will help everyone. I don't know about the insight, I've never gone this far with a trailer before. Learning as I go, relying on past experience and people like you. Build threads are my favorite, especially with pictures, lots of pictures. Thought I'd share my project as I have learned so much from everyone sharing theirs. |
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Post by danrhodes on Apr 23, 2015 8:41:53 GMT -8
Thank you so much for your insight and postings. It will help everyone. I don't know about the insight, I've never gone this far with a trailer before. Learning as I go, relying on past experience and people like you. Build threads are my favorite, especially with pictures, lots of pictures. Thought I'd share my project as I have learned so much from everyone sharing theirs. Yeah...not sure about helping...more like terrifying me ;-) If I had a nice, level workspace, it might not seem so scary, but mine is stuck on a rutted 60 year old asphalt driveway that's sloped about 20 degrees, so moving the frame around would be pretty impossible. Praying for minimal flooring rot, and hope to get back to it this weekend. |
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 23, 2015 9:37:45 GMT -8
Rin Tin, It's refreshing to me to ACTUALLY SEE a trailer being rebuilt correctly! It's obvious that you have taken the time to read what others have discussed, learned from their mistakes, you fully understood how your trailer was assembled, and the correct direction on what needs to be addressed. You win my FIVE STAR BUILDER AWARD for this month!
I have tried many different things, "some" are then proven as successful, or cost, or time saving methods, and get put into my tool box to be repeated in the future when they have a good application. The reason I removed the body from the frame on the Deville, was because it had a nice interior that had been previously restored by a unscrupulous flipper that I desired "to save". Now that the frame has been rebuilt (and updated with a bicycle rack receiver, more cross members, four corner stabilizers, weld-on step, truss strap, propane mount), and the body is back on the frame, I have moved on to repairing all of the wall framing wood rot, termite damage, and grinding out all of the previous owner's spray foam, Bondo, and tubes of silicone and butyl caulking. In the end, my conclusion.........it was a waste of time, to try and save the interior. It will get all new Birch panels inside, and I will save and refinish the counter and cabinets. My conclusion, after my frame off experiment is, while it's a very doable technique, it did not save me any time.
In looking at your photos, I would just knock out the front wall, lay the two wall sides down flat on saw horses, fix the sill boards, add the new Birch "over the old" panels, and use a router to cut it all out. Then refinish the walls while they lay flat. Set both "finished" walls aside, finish your trailer repairs, paint, and whatever subflooring needs to be done, then roll a new sheet of Marmoleum onto the subfloor before the walls go back up. This is how I did my 1953 Aljoa, and in retrospect I wish I had done the Deville the same way.
Best to you on your build.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 23, 2015 10:59:59 GMT -8
I don't know about the insight, I've never gone this far with a trailer before. Learning as I go, relying on past experience and people like you. Build threads are my favorite, especially with pictures, lots of pictures. Thought I'd share my project as I have learned so much from everyone sharing theirs. Yeah...not sure about helping...more like terrifying me ;-) If I had a nice, level workspace, it might not seem so scary, but mine is stuck on a rutted 60 year old asphalt driveway that's sloped about 20 degrees, so moving the frame around would be pretty impossible. Praying for minimal flooring rot, and hope to get back to it this weekend. I've said this before, I have great admiration for those that are doing this in their driveway. I've toyed with the idea of doing one outside, but nah, I figure I paid my dues long age as roofer, working year around in every type of weather that western Washington threw at me. |
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 23, 2015 11:14:04 GMT -8
Rin Tin, It's refreshing to me to ACTUALLY SEE a trailer being rebuilt correctly! It's obvious that you have taken the time to read what others have discussed, learned from their mistakes, you fully understood how your trailer was assembled, and the correct direction on what needs to be addressed. You win my FIVE STAR BUILDER AWARD for this month! I have tried many different things, "some" are then proven as successful, or cost, or time saving methods, and get put into my tool box to be repeated in the future when they have a good application. The reason I removed the body from the frame on the Deville, was because it had a nice interior that had been previously restored by a unscrupulous flipper that I desired "to save". Now that the frame has been rebuilt (and updated with a bicycle rack receiver, more cross members, four corner stabilizers, weld-on step, truss strap, propane mount), and the body is back on the frame, I have moved on to repairing all of the wall framing wood rot, termite damage, and grinding out all of the previous owner's spray foam, Bondo, and tubes of silicone and butyl caulking. In the end, my conclusion.........it was a waste of time, to try and save the interior. It will get all new Birch panels inside, and I will save and refinish the counter and cabinets. My conclusion, after my frame off experiment is, while it's a very doable technique, it did not save me any time. In looking at your photos, I would just knock out the front wall, lay the two wall sides down flat on saw horses, fix the sill boards, add the new Birch "over the old" panels, and use a router to cut it all out. Then refinish the walls while they lay flat. Set both "finished" walls aside, finish your trailer repairs, paint, and whatever subflooring needs to be done, then roll a new sheet of Marmoleum onto the subfloor before the walls go back up. This is how I did my 1953 Aljoa, and in retrospect I wish I had done the Deville the same way. Best to you on your build. Wow John, that's quite the compliment coming from an opinionated curmudgeon like you. I hadn't thought of doing the walls that way. Thanks for the suggestion. I've had it in my head that I should keep the body intact as much as possible, replacing one piece of paneling at a time, doing the back end first then moving to the front. That's why I left the front upper cabinet installed. |
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Post by vikx on Apr 23, 2015 22:03:43 GMT -8
John, you are now our official CURMUDGEON!!
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 24, 2015 6:37:14 GMT -8
John, you are now our official CURMUDGEON!! I've never been given anything, that I have not EARNED!
LOL
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mobiltec
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I make mistakes so you don't have to...
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Post by mobiltec on Apr 28, 2015 14:32:20 GMT -8
Rin Tin, It's refreshing to me to ACTUALLY SEE a trailer being rebuilt correctly! It's obvious that you have taken the time to read what others have discussed, learned from their mistakes, you fully understood how your trailer was assembled, and the correct direction on what needs to be addressed. You win my FIVE STAR BUILDER AWARD for this month! I have tried many different things, "some" are then proven as successful, or cost, or time saving methods, and get put into my tool box to be repeated in the future when they have a good application. The reason I removed the body from the frame on the Deville, was because it had a nice interior that had been previously restored by a unscrupulous flipper that I desired "to save". Now that the frame has been rebuilt (and updated with a bicycle rack receiver, more cross members, four corner stabilizers, weld-on step, truss strap, propane mount), and the body is back on the frame, I have moved on to repairing all of the wall framing wood rot, termite damage, and grinding out all of the previous owner's spray foam, Bondo, and tubes of silicone and butyl caulking. In the end, my conclusion.........it was a waste of time, to try and save the interior. It will get all new Birch panels inside, and I will save and refinish the counter and cabinets. My conclusion, after my frame off experiment is, while it's a very doable technique, it did not save me any time. In looking at your photos, I would just knock out the front wall, lay the two wall sides down flat on saw horses, fix the sill boards, add the new Birch "over the old" panels, and use a router to cut it all out. Then refinish the walls while they lay flat. Set both "finished" walls aside, finish your trailer repairs, paint, and whatever subflooring needs to be done, then roll a new sheet of Marmoleum onto the subfloor before the walls go back up. This is how I did my 1953 Aljoa, and in retrospect I wish I had done the Deville the same way. Best to you on your build. Wow John, that's quite the compliment coming from an opinionated curmudgeon like you. I hadn't thought of doing the walls that way. Thanks for the suggestion. I've had it in my head that I should keep the body intact as much as possible, replacing one piece of paneling at a time, doing the back end first then moving to the front. That's why I left the front upper cabinet installed. If you have the indoor space to work in then a frame off is the way to go. And the proper way to do it is like John said by laying the walls down and then after rebuilding them, tipping them back up and installing them back on the frame. The walls can not be repaneled unless you remove the roof, front and rear anyhow. All of my videos only show piece by piece restorals because I don't have the luxury of an indoor space to work from or store the walls. I don't even have room to lay them down if need be. It probably takes me twice as long to complete a project in this manner. I'm thinking of moving just so that I can have the space I need to work from. |
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Post by vintagebruce on Apr 28, 2015 16:57:33 GMT -8
I am really enjoying everything about your build RinTin. The dialogue amongst all of you who are commenting is priceless. It is like a tutorial at the Master's level!
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Apr 30, 2015 9:57:00 GMT -8
I am really enjoying everything about your build RinTin. The dialogue amongst all of you who are commenting is priceless. It is like a tutorial at the Master's level! Yeah, the tutorials that you all are giving me along the way. I have easily wasted 40-60 hours on this project so far, thinking I knew what I was doing and things turning out differently. This thread is quite a ways behind the trailer's current status. I have plenty more screw ups for you to enjoy in future posts. |
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Post by RinTin on Apr 30, 2015 11:38:36 GMT -8
The trailer frame was now in a position that I could work on it, so it went back up on the jack stands and the tires were removed. Before going any further I measured and noted the plywood sub-floor width, length and location of the wheel well cutouts. Next the perimeter sub-floor framing was removed and I indexed the front leading edge of the plywood sub-floor to the frame. To make the wheel wells easier to remove I first separated the sub floor from the frame. The original floor system has an aluminum belly pan with a layer of asphalt impregnated fiber board between the pan and the underside of the plywood sub-floor. I was able beat a pry bar between the belly pan and the frame, mashing the fiberboard and creating just enough space to slip in a sawzall blade and cut through the floor to frame bolts. Sorry, no pictures of that process, too much cussing. With the floor loose I slid it from side to side, creating more room for easier access to the staples that fastened the wheel wells to the underside of sub-floor. The wheel wells were also stapled through the sides into the edge of the plywood sub-floor. These would have been a real bugger to pull from underneath so instead, with my skill saw I cut through the plywood deck from above and chipped out the plywood until the wheel wells were free. I then slid the entire sub floor off the side of the frame and stood it up on edge on the shop floor. In this first picture you can see how crooked the street side wheel well was.  This is the street side front corner. Notice how the walls are built with the interior plywood paneling up against the sub-floor framing and insulation compressed between the paneling and the wall framing.  Here's another view showing the wall sill plate attached to the sub floor framing. The paneling and insulation extend all the way to the bottom of the sill plate, exposing the edge of the paneling on the underside of the trailer. I believe this construction method is the primary cause of the rot along the bottom of the walls. Interior grade plywood paneling will soak up water like a sponge with the edge exposed like this. Add the insulation and it only gets worse. I will re-build it differently so none of the plywood edges are exposed.  Wall sill plate removed:  A view of the front sub floor framing. Did the manufacturer really think that goop would do any good? In front, the interior plywood paneling also extended all the way to the bottom of the beveled sub-floor framing. It won't be when I rebuild it.  Marked the leading edge of the plywood sub-floor to the frame before cutting it loose.  Cutting back the plywood around the wheel wells.  Staples through the side of the wheel wells that went into the edge of the plywood sub-floor. You can see that the staples are removed that went up into the bottom of the sub-floor.  Wheel wells removed with plywood slid to one side for easier access:  Bare Frame:  |
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