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Post by vikx on Nov 22, 2013 23:06:36 GMT -8
I think your theory may be correct.
Also, some of the new plywood (questionable origins) is know to "crackle" with some stains. Shellac hasn't been a problem that I know of, but stain/poly has caused this phenomenon... a person would stain and seal the panels, only to have it crackle a few days later.
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cowcharge
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Post by cowcharge on Nov 24, 2013 4:44:05 GMT -8
I've had trouble with Tung oil but not sure if it was pure or not... it stayed sticky. Is there a life on tung oil? I even wrote on the can that I didn't like the finish. Now I'm thinking it wasn't the correct product or poor application. I haven't had any sticky problems with it so far, mixed 50/50 with mineral spirits, let soak in, and wipe, wipe, wipe until it's as dry as you can get it, then give it time before the next coat. What I've read suggests that putting it on too thickly, or not wiping the excess off thoroughly enough, or spacing your coats too close together (so they don't dry enough before the next coat) can cause that. I've read that it cures by "polymerizing" from reacting with oxygen (not by solvent-evaporation "drying" like paint or shellac), and that thick coats can cure only on the surface and stay sticky underneath. You have to try and wipe it all off, until none comes off on your fingers when you touch it, then, ideally let it dry for a day before the next coat. It may take even longer if the humidity's really high. Old oil was another reason cited, although it seems to last for years if kept from oxygen. One guy in a fine woodworking forum said the "old rule" is "One coat per week for a month: once per month for a year: and annually thereafter." Another wrote that it takes 3-5 months to fully cure, even in the thin coats used on wood. Again, I didn't have any sticky problems doing two coats on the same day. Of course, I haven't put all the coats on I have planned yet either (only three so far and it's been months and months), so it's still a work in progress, and is therefore being given lots of curing time. I think though, that it's a combination of the amount of thinner added (the wetter the better), thickness of coats (the thinner the better), thoroughness of wiping (try and get it "all" off after it soaks in for 20 minutes, changing to new dry rags often), the time between coats (the longer the better), and steel wool/tack rag right before the next coat, and then final buffing. The good part is that you can handle the wood as soon as you wipe it off, so even if it takes a long time to cure, it can cure on the trailer just as well as it can taking up half your shop. And since I'm using it on everything except the ceiling, I can basically slop some more anywhere in the trailer without worrying about getting it on neighboring pieces. It's a messy painter's dream in that respect.
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61 Shasta
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Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 24, 2013 16:56:53 GMT -8
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Gary
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Post by Gary on Nov 24, 2013 22:49:36 GMT -8
A note of caution about oils:
Anyone using Minwax, Watco, or other oil-based stains or finishes, PLEASE be careful with disposal of the rags used to apply or wipe down the excess. Oily rags WILL burn down your house if you're not careful.
I once wiped down a Minwax-stained piece in the morning and casually draped the rag over a sawhorse, figuring I'd deal with it when I got home from work that evening. When I got home, the garage was full of smoke, and the rag was glowing bright red and half of it was burned away. I had left the back door cracked, and if a puff of wind had come in that door, the rag would surely have burst into flames, right next to a wooden cabinet that reached nearly to the rafters.
There is a story about someone who used Watco on a dresser and left the wet rag in one of the drawers for less than a day, and the house burned down.
When I was in the Navy, a bundle of rags spontaneously combusted in a storage locker on the other side of an aluminum bulkhead from an ammunition magazine. This stuff is nothing to take lightly.
Standard practice is to have a metal trashcan with a lid, filled with water, and you stuff your rags into the water and close the lid. That's a pretty messy solution. What I do is spread the rags out flat on the ground, well away from the building, weight the corners with stones, and let them dry hard with no wrinkles or folds. It's in folds and wrinkles that the heat builds up. Once the rags have dried, it's okay to throw them away.
Never throw them in a corner or the trash can while they're still damp. Combustion can happen in a matter of hours.
-Gary
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Post by vikx on Nov 24, 2013 22:55:51 GMT -8
THANK YOU GARY! I've been draping my rags over the ladder rungs thinking it was only wadded up rags that would combust. I'll be more careful from now on.
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61 Shasta
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Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 25, 2013 7:36:55 GMT -8
Great reminder Gary, I like vikx tend to drape mine over a ladder or put them on a metal table I have outside the shop. Even though we read the directions and they clearly tell you to dispose of them in a metal can with water, we come up with our own method and it can have disastrous results as you point out. Again, thanks.
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61 Shasta
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Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 27, 2013 15:39:49 GMT -8
The verdict: It appears my theory is correct. I had wiped down the stain but not good enough on this type of material. SO, the lesson learned is, if you are going to stain 1/8th inch birch or any other product like this and finish with polyurethane or other hard finish material, be sure you wipe it dry, dry, dry, before applying the hard finish. Because, no matter how long you let it sit before applying the poly, if there is any residue left, it will not soak into the birch because basically, there is no where for it to soak into. If I were going to do it again, I probably wouldn't go this route but if I were, I would wipe do a final wipe down of the stain using a rag lightly coated with thinner, then let it stand for a few hours to evaporate that off before proceeding. The path ahead for me: I have stripped off all of the poly that was loose or came off when I applied a strip of tape. I then wiped it down using lacquer thinner, twice. I done extensive testing to make sure the water based poly would work on this "new" surface. The tests were very positive and no sign of product failure, so, I have gone back with the water based poly. I tried the oil based poly but the color was different enough that I chose not to use it. Especially since I was mating up with area's that had the water based coating already. If I had it to do all over from scratch, I would definitely go with the Shellac or at least a product that would be a stand alone application and wouldn't require prepping it with a stain. For me, staining birch paneling is now a definite no, no. The bottom line is, I hope this thread helps keep someone from making the same type of mistake I did. SO, moving right along.
Beside, then you won't have to worry about disposing of your stain soaked rags properly.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Nov 27, 2013 20:13:46 GMT -8
Thanks for your review and tips. I'll stick with shellac. It's pretty much all I know now anyways.
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jannica
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Post by jannica on Jan 19, 2014 6:34:44 GMT -8
I'm enjoying reading through Jim's blog. I love how he posts a picture of a little animal or a landscape at the end of each post.
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Post by kto17 on Jan 19, 2014 7:15:09 GMT -8
I don't think I saw this mentioned, for wood filler. If you cut some of the birch, try to do it in the same area or just collect the sawdust. Use a clear drying wood glue and mix it with fine sawdust. Mix it into a peanut butter like paste. It should make a stainable filler, if you use the right glue. I think it's Elmer's that I've heard is good for this, but do a test first to be sure.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Jan 19, 2014 7:48:57 GMT -8
Yep any wood glue will work. But you have to use the birch part of the sawdust for it to match. Sawdust from cutting paneling is mostly other types of wood used in the ply. And if you use the saw dust from your sander, you must make sure that it is clean sawdust and not mixed with what ever finish that was used on the paneling that you are sanding. So it's best to actually make your sawdust from a fresh piece of birch.
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keith
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Post by keith on Aug 19, 2015 7:08:27 GMT -8
Again, I didn't have any sticky problems doing two coats on the same day. Of course, I haven't put all the coats on I have planned yet either (only three so far and it's been months and months), so it's still a work in progress, and is therefore being given lots of curing time. I think though, that it's a combination of the amount of thinner added (the wetter the better), thickness of coats (the thinner the better), thoroughness of wiping (try and get it "all" off after it soaks in for 20 minutes, changing to new dry rags often), the time between coats (the longer the better), and steel wool/tack rag right before the next coat, and then final buffing. The good part is that you can handle the wood as soon as you wipe it off, so even if it takes a long time to cure, it can cure on the trailer just as well as it can taking up half your shop. And since I'm using it on everything except the ceiling, I can basically slop some more anywhere in the trailer without worrying about getting it on neighboring pieces. It's a messy painter's dream in that respect. I'm going to try the tung oil on my 1963 Shasta cabinets. Wish me luck! I have my metal trash can and water ready! I know this thread is a couple of years old -- Any last minute new advice from anyone before I do it?
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SusieQ
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Post by SusieQ on Aug 19, 2015 7:24:37 GMT -8
Keith, good luck. I think they'll turn out great. I'm glad someone else is out of the amber box. And that mug on your profile pic is SO cute!
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