61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 19, 2013 19:33:41 GMT -8
As I neared the completion of "Chucks Waggin" he came home from the tailor with a brand new suit and all that was lacking was to put on his makeup and do some minor stuff to the interior. Boy was I in for a surprise. As I was doing some touch up around the sink, I masked off the splash board to protect the walls. When I removed the masking tape, OUCH, the great coating of polyurethane came off on the tape!!!! I immediately tried the "tape test" in some other spots, ceiling included with the same results. I immediately rushed into my local ACE store and "communicated with the manager". He was as surprised as I was. We reviewed our coating process and came to the same conclusion. We must have had a product failure. I used minwax ipswith pine stain, 2 coats with each wiped down after coating. Then about a week later, I brushed on 3 coats of water based polyurethane semi gloss. Allowing each coat to dry for a couple of days. Sanding, etc. mixed into the process. Each sanding wiped down with tack cloths. This was the recommended process directions on the product. That of course is the short story. I had installed all new birch 1/8th inch paneling prior to starting this process. The only thing I can "guess" is that the veneer on the birch is so thin that it really don't accept stain in the normal sense and there was some kind of residue left that kept the urethane from adhering to it. According to ACE and the experts, there should have been no problem using a water based poly over an oil based stain. That don't really make sense to me but apparently I accepted the reasoning at the time and went ahead with it. Anyway, I have what I have and must move forward. I might add that prior to doing the staining and coating I had created a "story board" to arrive at the base color I was trying to achieve. Unfortunately, I didn't do the tape test on the board. Otherwise I might have prevented "hypertension".
So now, what to do?? Well, right now I am stripping off the polyurethane using the orange stuff and it is working great to get back to the original (or close) starting point. I pulled the drawers and did them first and found they wouldn't take any stain so I guess I am stuck with whatever base I have for a final finish color although it is not too bad. I considered going back with shellac but just can't quite convince myself that is the way to go (I'm a hard headed German I guess). Plus, I wanted (want) the hardiness of the poly finish.
I guess, my question is, can I have my cake and eat it too? or am I going to have to give in and go with the shellac. I know one thing, after having to strip all of that beautiful poly off and starting over, I am going to be d____ sure which direction I'm headed before I make the first step.
I am very open to suggestions. Please hold the "I told you so's" until the final tally.
|
|
SusieQ
Global Moderator
Posts: 4,781
Likes: 1,197
'62 Shasta Compact
Currently Offline
|
Post by SusieQ on Nov 19, 2013 20:12:37 GMT -8
I don't know who those experts are but they are wrong. You can't put a water based finish over an oil stain, well you can but it won't stick. If you use the regular polyurethane that is oil based and not the modified, you shouldn't have a problem.
And for future reference, if oil based polyurethane is applied over acrylic (water based) paint, it will adhere but it turns very yellow with age and will peel.
I use Minwax stains and polyurethane on musical instruments. I've used them each separately and the one coat kind with the stain and polyurethane. But I've never used the water based. It would probably work well over acrylics.
Editing my comment: Technically you should be able to put oil over water, but I wouldn't!
|
|
|
Post by vikx on Nov 19, 2013 23:38:01 GMT -8
My two cents after stripping:
Amber shellac. It is very forgiving and blends different wood types. Clear shellac is fine, but doesn't blend different wood tones as well.
|
|
61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 20, 2013 9:30:41 GMT -8
Your 2 cents are always worth more than face value and I appreciate the input. I am going to go back and review Mobil's video and see if I want to take on the project in that direction. I certainly like the thought of the amber color, just guess I am put off by things I have heard and read about using shellac. However, nothing could be worse (I hope) than the extra work I am going through now. The only problem I may have is, the doors, drawers and cabinets are all good with the poly so I was not planning on stripping them. I will have to do a test board to see what the colors look like together. Again, thanks for the "push".
|
|
SusieQ
Global Moderator
Posts: 4,781
Likes: 1,197
'62 Shasta Compact
Currently Offline
|
Post by SusieQ on Nov 20, 2013 10:46:22 GMT -8
I didn't meant for my comment to sound like an "I told you so" sorta' comment. Sorry if it did. I'm not a shellac person either, but I've bought the amber shellac for mine. I felt like it was in keeping with the period and I thought I was leaving more wood than I am. Otherwise I would have done golden oak stain and poly. If you want it to look like your cabinets, you could test the oil based polyurethane on a scrap piece. Did you do the same thing to your cabinets that you did to your walls?
|
|
61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 20, 2013 11:03:48 GMT -8
Your reply didn't sound like the "I told you so" comment. I appreciate any feedback I can get. As far as the experts are concerned, it wasn't necessarily their input that I relied on, I been doing this kind of stuff for enough years that I do a little research if something doesn't sound right to me, and this didn't. The directions on the can of poly clearly stated that applied correctly it could be put directly over oil based minwax stain. I followed the directions to the letter. I suppose given the name min "wax" I should have done a little more experimenting before applying the full coating. I still think that there was some type of residue left after wiping down the stain that caused the breakdown. ACE is going to stand behind their product and supply whatever I need to accomplish the desired result, the only thing they can't do is the elbow grease that goes into getting there. Fortunately I am using odorless (orange) stripper and odorless mineral spirits so I can go maskless until I have to apply the finish. On a positive note, this will give me a chance to do a better job in some area's of filling some cracks and blending of joints although nothing real bad. I loved the finish as it was.
|
|
61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 20, 2013 11:05:23 GMT -8
Almost forgot to answer your question. Yes, the cabinets, drawers and doors were all done the same way as the walls. You can bet I will be doing some "experimenting".
|
|
cowcharge
1K Member
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 328
Currently Offline
|
Post by cowcharge on Nov 20, 2013 11:06:23 GMT -8
I've always heard that water over oil was ok, but not the other way 'round.
Perhaps the poly was applied too soon, before the solvents in the stain dried completely? Do you remember, was there more of a delay between the two on the drawers than there was on the rest?
|
|
61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 20, 2013 11:18:38 GMT -8
Actually cowcharge I stained the whole thing then let it sit for about a week before even considering appling the poly. It was warm enough to certainly dry well enough. I even wiped it down with a tack cloth as I went to be sure there was no dust on it and there weren't any sticky spots so I'm "pretty sure" it was ok to apply the poly. The poly was even all from the same batch so it is a real mystery to me. Thanks for the response, perhaps at some point we'll come up with the answer.
|
|
newmexicogal
Junior Member
Posts: 77
Likes: 25
Currently Offline
|
Post by newmexicogal on Nov 20, 2013 13:03:59 GMT -8
May I add my own query to this thread? I'm hoping to get to wood finishing/refinishing a bit later in the winter once I can get my recalcitrant gal into the garage. I plan to go down the shellac path based on comments here. What do people like to use to repair the multitude of holes that PO's have put in her beautiful paneling? Are all wood putties the same? Thanks in advance.
|
|
mobiltec
5K Member
I make mistakes so you don't have to...
Posts: 9,822
Likes: 3,749
1954 Jewel In Progress...
Currently Offline
|
Post by mobiltec on Nov 20, 2013 14:15:45 GMT -8
One Question.......
Are we talking about new unfinished birch here or did you apply all this minwax stuff over old shellac? Because you can NEVER apply ANYTHING other than shellac over shellac. If you are going to go the poly way you must first sand down to bare birch which is as you said, very thin and if you go to far you will go right through the top veneer.
|
|
mobiltec
5K Member
I make mistakes so you don't have to...
Posts: 9,822
Likes: 3,749
1954 Jewel In Progress...
Currently Offline
|
Post by mobiltec on Nov 20, 2013 14:17:28 GMT -8
May I add my own query to this thread? I'm hoping to get to wood finishing/refinishing a bit later in the winter once I can get my recalcitrant gal into the garage. I plan to go down the shellac path based on comments here. What do people like to use to repair the multitude of holes that PO's have put in her beautiful paneling? Are all wood putties the same? Thanks in advance. I have yet to find a "birch" wood putty that matches well LOL.... But it's better than leaving the holes open.
|
|
SusieQ
Global Moderator
Posts: 4,781
Likes: 1,197
'62 Shasta Compact
Currently Offline
|
Post by SusieQ on Nov 20, 2013 14:27:38 GMT -8
Home Depot's site says you can: "• Water-based paint can be applied over oil-based paint, but oil-based paint shouldn’t be applied over water-based without the use of a primer first."
But water runs off a duck's back. And stain and polyurethane aren't really paint. You are correct Cow, and I can see it working with something old and cured but not over something freshly done.
I just like to keep my mediums the same.
|
|
61 Shasta
Active Member
Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
Posts: 200
Likes: 38
Currently Offline
|
Post by 61 Shasta on Nov 20, 2013 14:40:35 GMT -8
As said before, I installed all new Birch before starting the process. I used a story board to develop the color I was looking for. As with the story board, I stained the birch with ipswitch pine oil based stain. let it set for about 20 minutes, then wiped it down. I didn't get any grain bumps so didn't sand. it was smooth as a newborns bottom. I let this dry, on the story board, about 2 days in warm weather. I then applied a coat of polyurethane, let that dry for 24 hours then another coat. It had the color I was looking for as well as a smooth and semi gloss finish. I was a happy almost camper. Had I tried the tape test at this point, the problem I encountered would probably have shown up, however, I didn't. I didn't even realize I had a problem until I masked off an area around the sink. When I took the tape off, most of the poly came with it. Problem encountered, resolution discussion commenced.
|
|
cowcharge
1K Member
Posts: 1,003
Likes: 328
Currently Offline
|
Post by cowcharge on Nov 20, 2013 14:47:32 GMT -8
I've heard of wood releasing more waxes and solvents after being heated, like by sitting in the sun (shrug, wild guesses)...
To confuse things further, i use water-based stain and then tung oil, and have no problems so far. The oil soaks right into the stain.
You can make your own wood putty by sanding an extra piece of birch into sawdust and mixing it with wood glue. In holes the size of a screw it ought to be almost invisible after some amber shellac.
|
|