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Post by bigbill on Apr 29, 2015 17:27:28 GMT -8
Corvettes also have or has the battery inside the car. But most cars aren't put on a charger for extended periods unless the battery area is open.
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Post by vikx on Apr 29, 2015 21:19:24 GMT -8
Another Update:
Chatted with the battery shop yesterday. The guy said AGMs don't off gas and are perfectly safe inside. Hmmmm. He said that AGMs have a relief valve in the caps that can fail under certain conditions. In other words, once they fail, gas can escape... This conversation came up because of a recent installation of an AGM in the dinette area.
He also said that overcharging could cause the type of explosion we had in a wet cell. With a flaw in the battery, if fluids were low, that sort of thing. Not sure if I agree. Just trying to share ideas here.
The battery maintainer is probably not the culprit. When they fail, the charging portion doesn't work, according to the same person.
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Post by bigbill on Apr 30, 2015 11:49:42 GMT -8
Another Update: Chatted with the battery shop yesterday. The guy said AGMs don't off gas and are perfectly safe inside. Hmmmm. He said that AGMs have a relief valve in the caps that can fail under certain conditions. In other words, once they fail, gas can escape... This conversation came up because of a recent installation of an AGM in the dinette area. He also said that overcharging could cause the type of explosion we had in a wet cell. With a flaw in the battery, if fluids were low, that sort of thing. Not sure if I agree. Just trying to share ideas here. The battery maintainer is probably not the culprit. When they fail, the charging portion doesn't work, according to the same person. I don't wish to get involved in a huge debate but I have personally seen battery maintainers fail and over charge a battery to the point the sides swell out and the battery became hot. Anyone who says an electrical device can't fail and do some thing weird isn't living in the real world. As far as AGM batteries go there are all kinds of warnings about overcharging them. AGM batteries are considered totally safe as long as they are charged properly, that is why they are allowed on commercial aircraft. My boss has an electric wheelchair and an electric three wheel scooter, so I have purchased,maintained and charged them giving me a small amount of knowledge about them.
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cowcharge
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Post by cowcharge on Apr 30, 2015 15:15:38 GMT -8
AGM's gas. Every lead-acid battery gasses during charging, because it's exactly the same chemical reaction in every one. AGM's only "don't gas" in that they're sealed, up to a certain vapor pressure. If they're not overcharged or faulty, they don't gas enough to blow the safety valves, and therefore, as far as you and your camper or an airplane are concerned, they "don't gas". But only if they are charged at their proper voltages, which are lower than the voltages for "wet" batteries. Which means that an AGM of a given amp-hour capacity will take longer to charge than a wet battery of the same capacity. "I canna' change the laws of physics, Captain!"
AGM's are not foolproof, despite the implication that they are being the salesmen's justification for you paying that much for them. If they are overcharged and the safety valves don't let go the way they should, then you get a pic like the one in the OP, AGM or not. Wet batteries are constantly vented, so they are much less likely to build up pressure in their own cases. What it comes down to is that both types of batteries need to be properly installed, charged and maintained in order to be safe. In fact, since AGM's are commonly considered so safe that you don't need venting or special compartments, and since people who use them by definition don't worry about battery safety as religiously as those with wet batteries, I submit that, unless you can show that AGM charging equipment is more reliable than wet battery charging equipment, you are in fact in more danger from an internal explosion of an AGM battery than you are from a wet cell in a proper box.
I don't deny that wet cells, since they are constantly vented, do gas more frequently under normal conditions (while AGM's should only gas under unusual circumstances), and therefore pose more risk of an external explosion of vented-but-confined gas. But both types have their risks.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 30, 2015 18:54:31 GMT -8
AGM's gas. Every lead-acid battery gasses during charging, because it's exactly the same chemical reaction in every one. AGM's only "don't gas" in that they're sealed, up to a certain vapor pressure. If they're not overcharged or faulty, they don't gas enough to blow the safety valves, and therefore, as far as you and your camper or an airplane are concerned, they "don't gas". But only if they are charged at their proper voltages, which are lower than the voltages for "wet" batteries. Which means that an AGM of a given amp-hour capacity will take longer to charge than a wet battery of the same capacity. "I canna' change the laws of physics, Captain!" AGM's are not foolproof, despite the implication that they are being the salesmen's justification for you paying that much for them. If they are overcharged and the safety valves don't let go the way they should, then you get a pic like the one in the OP, AGM or not. Wet batteries are constantly vented, so they are much less likely to build up pressure in their own cases. What it comes down to is that both types of batteries need to be properly installed, charged and maintained in order to be safe. In fact, since AGM's are commonly considered so safe that you don't need venting or special compartments, and since people who use them by definition don't worry about battery safety as religiously as those with wet batteries, I submit that, unless you can show that AGM charging equipment is more reliable than wet battery charging equipment, you are in fact in more danger from an internal explosion of an AGM battery than you are from a wet cell in a proper box. I don't deny that wet cells, since they are constantly vented, do gas more frequently under normal conditions (while AGM's should only gas under unusual circumstances), and therefore pose more risk of an external explosion of vented-but-confined gas. But both types have their risks. AMEN BROTHER! Perfectly stated, X2.
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Post by bigbill on Apr 30, 2015 20:09:58 GMT -8
What we are all trying to tell you is READ AND FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS FOR SAFE USE AND HANDLING....... NO MATTER WHAT TYPE OF BATTERY YOU USE.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 30, 2015 20:50:20 GMT -8
What we are all trying to tell you is READ AND FOLLOW THE DIRECTIONS FOR SAFE USE AND HANDLING....... NO MATTER WHAT TYPE OF BATTERY YOU USE. Dang.........we are guys, and we never read directions, or listen to our wife, or so I'm told. LOL
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Post by vikx on Apr 30, 2015 21:14:40 GMT -8
My sentiments exactly. I have said over and over again that batteries are not safe in the cabin unless properly vented.
I think the battery guy might have been showing his "knowledge" rather than thinking straight...
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cowcharge
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Post by cowcharge on May 2, 2015 15:14:48 GMT -8
I just hope I'm not standing next to one of those big forklift batteries when they go. We had one go at work a year or so ago, but I wasn't there that day. Lotta acid in those things.
I'm sticking with plain ol' 6v golf cart batteries, since I've got the room. If I had a Compact I'd use one good 12v real deep cycle battery (not one of those "marine/deep cycle" batteries that are only slightly-beefier car batteries at best). Wet batteries are familiar, reliable technology, easy to care for and be safe with, they're the only batteries you can ever get a true state-of-charge reading on (hydrometer), and they give so much more durability and capacity per pound and per dollar that I just can't see many applications where I'd prefer an AGM (if I could even afford them, it's not a really a choice for me anyway).
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 2, 2015 18:26:41 GMT -8
I just hope I'm not standing next to one of those big forklift batteries when they go. We had one go at work a year or so ago, but I wasn't there that day. Lotta acid in those things. I'm sticking with plain ol' 6v golf cart batteries, since I've got the room. If I had a Compact I'd use one good 12v real deep cycle battery (not one of those "marine/deep cycle" batteries that are only slightly-beefier car batteries at best). Wet batteries are familiar, reliable technology, easy to care for and be safe with, they're the only batteries you can ever get a true state-of-charge reading on (hydrometer), and they give so much more durability and capacity per pound and per dollar that I just can't see many applications where I'd prefer an AGM (if I could even afford them, it's not a really a choice for me anyway). We agree!
We used lots of AGM type potteries in the motorcycle and ATV business. I would guess the O.E. manufacturers spec them due to problems with off road vibration. With an AGM battery the lead plates are cushioned and supported by insulator plates from vibrations. I could see using them for high vibration applications like "off road" racing cars and trucks, and maybe "flat bottom" high performance ski boats, but with the smaller load capacity per weight, and slower recharging , I see no advantage for using them in a vintage trailer application.
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Post by bigbill on May 2, 2015 20:22:44 GMT -8
Think LEDs and rechargeable or disposable AA batteries if you want the safest system. Most likely cost competitive for most people. Everyday more things are being developed that use less and less power. Is anybody reading up on Telsa's whole house battery? It looks like it won't be long before the right battery and a few solar panels will even run your heat and air.
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Post by vikx on May 2, 2015 21:10:21 GMT -8
The battery maintainer is shot. Hard to tell if it was before the explosion or if the event ruined the charger. Anyway, I tested it on the new battery and it charges and charges AND CHARGES SOME MORE.
I bought a replacement today and owner will be checking the charger at least once a day while camping. The nice thing about the Schumacher is that it is easily replaceable but also a low end model, could fail more often.
So, the saga continues...
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 3, 2015 6:43:12 GMT -8
A $10 digital Multi Meter is a must have tool for every home owner's tool box, auto owner, and certainly any trailer owner.
A Multi Meter is a electronic test tool that can be used to determine voltage, down to the hundredth of a volt.
It will test any kind of battery charge level, or in the case of this thread, it would have been able to quickly diagnose the "over charging" battery maintainer.
It can be set for 110v, or 12v systems by just turning a knob, and it will even test your AA batteries, and tell you which one is below 1.5v and needs replacement.
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cowcharge
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Post by cowcharge on May 11, 2015 8:17:43 GMT -8
Yup, gotta have a multimeter. I like the ones with the "clamp" type ammeters on them, which allow you to just put the clamp on any wire at any point to see what you're using for power. I use mine all the time to compare the amps coming in from my solar panel to the amps going out to appliances.
Using voltage readings to judge the state of charge is quick and easy for day-to-day glimpses, but not as accurate as dipping a hydrometer in the acid (which is one reason "battery monitoring panels" have such a high potential for inaccuracy, it depends so much upon how they're programmed and set up). Go straight to the horse's mouth!
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