nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 1, 2015 8:19:20 GMT -8
Basically, domestic on the east coast will cost double. I've called every confirmed source for 1000 miles.
Is domestic really worth double?
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Post by danrhodes on Sept 1, 2015 8:56:38 GMT -8
Buy a sheet and shellac it?...if it has delamination issues, it seems others discover them when finishing it. TBH, living in California, I'd almost rather have the imported...they've long since banned all the "good stuff" here...my truck was made in Fremont and I often think it was painted with watercolors.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Sept 1, 2015 11:08:03 GMT -8
Basically, domestic on the east coast will cost double. I've called every confirmed source for 1000 miles. Is domestic really worth double? It may be. The imported birch that is available here in the PNW typically has a very thin veneer, so thin you can oftentimes see the darker glue through it. When it is so thin, you have to be very careful sanding, but more importantly, to me at least, is that when finished the wood does not have the depth and luster that a thicker veneer will. This is to say nothing of the delamination issues that some have experienced. At least with delamination you can exchange the defective panels. Imported birch plywood will also typically have a thick single ply core of either Luan or MDF, neither of which hold up well if exposed to moisture. 3-plys is fine for 1/8", not as good for 1/4". The MDF core is preferred by cabinet makers as it is a smoother substrate which ultimately is a better looking finished product than the Luan core. This is fine for cabinets intended for indoor use but a less than ideal plywood for our trailers. There is now Particleboard and MDF that is made with waterproof resins which saturate and encapsulate the wood particles and fibers. I have seen demonstrations of these holding up after being submerged in water for several days. Problem is, to my knowledge, no one is manufacturing birch plywood like this. Even if it was available, I would question whether this product would be adequate structurally for our trailers. As a small millwork dealer, I buy from the same wholesale distributors that lumberyards buy from so have access to the best that is available in my area. All the domestic birch I have seen locally is MDF core. If I could find 1/4" domestic birch with thick veneers and a two ply core, I would gladly pay double for it, at least once, so that if nothing else, I would know how it compares to the import Luan core that I have been using.
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kirkadie
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Post by kirkadie on Sept 1, 2015 12:45:34 GMT -8
Imported birch from Lowes in 4 x 8 sheets is not square. The domestic birch from Keim lumber is not only square but oversized by 1/2" in both directions. And it bends nicely. Squaring up a sheet of plywood is no picnic.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Sept 1, 2015 13:50:15 GMT -8
Imported birch from Lowes in 4 x 8 sheets is not square. The domestic birch from Keim lumber is not only square but oversized by 1/2" in both directions. And it bends nicely. Squaring up a sheet of plywood is no picnic. Yep, that's one of the problems with buying lumber products from Lowe's and HD, you may get a good price on a great product once and never see it in the store again. There is no consistency. What is the core of the domestic you are buying?
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 1, 2015 14:22:38 GMT -8
Great information.
Unfortunately the people taking orders over the phone don't know how their birch is made or (I can tell) are talking off the top of their head. Whatever they think I want to hear, they say.
Since I can't buy it locally I have to order it and take my chances. But at twice the cost I can throw out half the imported panels before I would have been better off with domestic. And it seems like just buying domestic is no guarantee of it being a quality plywood.
Keim will ship it but they want $41 a piece. Boulter will ship it from Boston but they want $45. Both domestic. Public lumber will ship it and it's $20 a sheet. They say it is domestic but Mel was told it was imported.
The advantage of Boulter is that I will be in Boston two days from now and and can pick through the pile. But from speaking to the rep, I trust Keim more.
So not an easy choice when I am talking about 20 pieces.
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SusieQ
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Post by SusieQ on Sept 1, 2015 16:47:41 GMT -8
The 1/4 " birch that I used from Lowe's is awful. It doesn't delaminate but you can see the knot holes through it. At first I just thought my ceiling looked bad because it got a little wet on the back side when my tarp blew off. But my door panel was not exposed to any dampness and when I sanded it lightly before shellacking, I could immediately see the knot holes and of course you can see them after it was shellacked. I hand sanded it really lightly with 320 so it should not have made the knot holes from the other side appear... but it did.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Sept 1, 2015 17:12:45 GMT -8
You are right about the salespeople, I have the same issues buying at the wholesale level. Very few of them have any hands on working knowledge of the products they are selling. Even talking with the buyers, they often go through brokers selling mixed lots by the container or train car load so other than the grade, they don't always know exactly what they are getting. The only way to know for sure is to buy direct from a mill producing a consistent product. Unfortunately, thanks to the global economy, in my experience nobody does business this way any more. In your shoes, I would pick through the pile at Boulter before ordering sight unseen from Keim. If they will be shipping, include two sheets of 7/16" OSB for dunnage to sandwich and help protect the birch. This is something they should be recommending. I have never had any delaminating problems with 1/8" or 1/4" imported birch, only thin veneers. That may be because I buy from wholesalers that mostly sell to cabinet manufacturers who would not tolerate it. If Boulter is a bust, I don't know what I'd do. I'd like to believe that domestic is superior but have never seen any other than MDF core in 1/4". Maybe kirkadie will chime in with more specifics on Keim's product.
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kirkadie
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Post by kirkadie on Sept 1, 2015 18:02:07 GMT -8
Chiming in here; Keim lumber is an amazing place owned and operated by Amish craftsmen and craftswomen. Their shipping costs seem reflective of the shippers and not the store. That said, and reflective of the mark-up of the two places I found in Toledo who are supplied by them, I would certainly not pay nearly 100% over their cost. It seems, nationwide, that there are still dealers who can get good stuff, but if you're not in driving distance the costs are not justifiable. A couple of weeks ago, after my bending 1/4" fiasco, I contacted LP and Colombia with the inferences I got from Larry. They agreed that the demand for 1/8 had collapsed after some "unknown" problems and had no intentions of restarting production of that particular product. Columbia sent me Home Despot's web site but did not acknowledge that those panels were Chinese. They seem to be, at least here in S.E. Ohio.
Back to Keim. Amish here in Ohio do not drive on-road vehicles. There are however delivery services, usually owner/operators who will deliver anything almost anywhere. For example, trailer delivery companies, like the great guy who tried to deliver one of our member's trailer which turned into an epic story.
If we all knew others in our, lets say 100 mile area (that's my 1 way drive to Keim), getting a skid of 1/8 might not be so bad. My sales person said their discount started at 10 sheets, and a unit is probably 50.
I'll make some calls to Keim to tell them our problem. Best case, they will tell me their supplier, and worst case, well, er, dang. Calls from others here would maybe help our case. Single owner stores really want to sell stuff, and they really like happy customers.
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 1, 2015 19:02:32 GMT -8
Thanks for the advice. It is a coin toss.
Keim will arrange delivery but buying without seeing seems risky. Boulter sales person had a lousy attitude and made me question how honest they were about their suppliers. I'm passing by there Thursday so I will stop in and give them a chance face to face.
One last thing I tried late today. I called Hood (local in NC) again even though they told me twice over the last year that they don't carry 1/8 plywood. I said, "I know they produce domestic birch and you're a big company with top suppliers. I want 20 sheets, not 2. I'm not asking for a discount and I'll pay on delivery. Can you check about special ordering it? If you can get it, I can promise you more business from people who use it."
He said he would make a few calls and get back to me tomorrow.
I'm the kind of person who will pay for quality. But the sales people seem to know less about 1/8 birch than the guy who made my sandwich today. So who can you believe?
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Post by vintagebruce on Sept 2, 2015 5:58:23 GMT -8
If your Hood is the same as my Hood, ours is definitely a discount building supply store. You can find some fairly good stuff if you are willing to go to the store and dig and sort, and are willing to pass on 10 pieces for every one you like. The sales people at our Hood are very willing to help, and do not blow smoke about what they have to offer. It is what it is, odd lot stuff they got at a good price and are willing to pass along at a fair price. I won't know how the quality of those door skins is until I test a piece or two. I'm wondering if your Hood does not get 1/8 plywood regularly so chooses to simply say we do not carry it. Maybe they get some, but not on enough of a regular schedule to guarantee to customers they will have it whenever someone wants some. Have you asked them that if they by any chance, get an odd lot of it, would they let you know?
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 2, 2015 14:24:19 GMT -8
After turning me down twice in the last year, Hood in Raleigh made some calls and found a mill that will send them 20 sheets. No less. Made in SC and A grade, guaranteed. Hood tried to talk me into grade B saying A was overkill. But for $5 a piece more I went for it.
I'll see it upon pick up and if there is anything really wrong with the pieces I can get replacements. But I'm committed to 20.
It takes 3-4 weeks to run it and deliver to NC
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Sept 2, 2015 16:14:55 GMT -8
Sounds like your persistence paid off. You made the right choice with A grade. I am very surprised that there are still mills that will do small runs like that. Is this 1/8" or 1/4"? What is the core? This could turn out to be a great resource.
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 2, 2015 18:05:10 GMT -8
Vintagebruce, Hood Distributors is a supplier for the trade. They don't have stores. Your Hood must be a different company.
RinTin, Hood couldn't answer the "core" question but they were at least honest enough to say so. Since I had them on the phone with the mill twice already I let it go. I was happy enough to get A grade 1/8 inch natural birch. The Mill said it will be 1/32nd larger than 1/8. I think you mentioned that in another thread.
We will know more in a month.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on Sept 3, 2015 5:28:29 GMT -8
Your 1/8" will likely have a single wood ply core, I would guess Southern Pine coming from the SE, but it could be Luan or just about anything. With 1/8" it doesn't really matter as long as nothing telegraphs through the face veneer as SuzyQ experienced. When it comes to wood products, I am always curious about these details as they can make a big difference.
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