goshawks
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working on the trotwood when not camping
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Post by goshawks on May 14, 2015 2:59:18 GMT -8
spraying is by far the most effective way to get a good finish. As far as brushing, like you said it's not bad for full coat coverage but blending edges is a b***h. One other note, always go with the grain!! "think of petting the cat!"
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 14, 2015 6:44:57 GMT -8
Shellac is Forgiving and Unforgiving... I'm thinking it's not for a fine quality cabinet finisher. I like it because of the glow and easy touch up. When you say "fine quality cabinet finisher" I hope you aren't referring to me. Compared to amateurs, I can lay down a decent finish, but compared to those guys/gals, I'm the amateur, LOL. I too really like how it adds depth and brings out the character of the wood. I like the sheen and I love how it feels to the touch. Sounds like it isn't just me but more the workability of the product itself. It helped to sand between coats and knock down the high spots.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 14, 2015 6:54:57 GMT -8
spraying is by far the most effective way to get a good finish. As far as brushing, like you said it's not bad for full coat coverage but blending edges is a b***h. One other note, always go with the grain!! "think of petting the cat!" Yes, work with the grain, wood finishing 101. Spraying is fine but I do want to learn to better work this stuff by hand. Thanks for the input.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 14, 2015 8:33:13 GMT -8
spraying is by far the most effective way to get a good finish. As far as brushing, like you said it's not bad for full coat coverage but blending edges is a b***h. One other note, always go with the grain!! "think of petting the cat!" Yes, work with the grain, wood finishing 101. Spraying is fine but I do want to learn to better work this stuff by hand. Thanks for the input. Well........I like Shellac, and French Polishing, but it does, and does not like to do certain things.
As you already mentioned, it does NOT like any heat. The colder the ambient temperature, the slower the alcohol evaporates, and the easier it is to keep a wet edge. Never, apply it in the sun, or allow the sun to warm a freshly done piece until it's fully cured, as the wet alcohol will "pucker" the lower coats. Make sure the product, and the materials to be coated have acclimated to the cooler area you will be working in. IE, don't take a piece of paneling out of a warm house, and then try to apply the shellac in a cold garage, let the paneling sit in the cold area first, if that makes any sense?
Just like if you were polishing your truck, never work an larger area than you can keep wet. In a perfect environment, it's maybe only 12" to 18" square done at a time. I think you discovered the importance of this on your test piece which came out nice. The trick is to learn how to "seamlessly blend" the small sections together.
I cut the "store bought" can by 25 to 30% with denatured alcohol, it helps the product flow, and makes the new product coats your adding, melt into, and adhere to the old coats to prevent the build up's and streaking you experienced. The first coat is the hardest coat for me to keep from turning splotchy, as it just wants to soak into the raw wood. I will be trying the Zinsser sanding sealer spoken about earlier to see it helps the first coats. I never sand any time before the third to fourth coat, then only a light scuff sand with a stiff block and 320. I use a straight edge razor blade a lot. I use it at 90 degrees to the surface, and scrape off any boogers, drips, runs, insects, bird droppings (I work outside under a large tree). If you have a really bad goof up area, just a little alcohol on a red 3M scuff pad will smooth it out without removing everything. I try to coat "full sheets" laying flat on saw horses. It's just faster, and easier for me to do a full sheet "laying flat" to about the 90% done level, and forget about the waste. When they are standing up you will be fighting runs, and not be able to focus on blending. After the sheets are cut and mounted, I just give it a final scuff sand, and apply the final coat, "before" I apply the trim welting to the wall edges.
With all of the above said and done, you still will not be happy until you discover the following technique. Think about how the cloth "feels" when you are wiping the dried polish off of your truck finish. The cloth glides across the newly polished area, "until" it reaches the dried polish area which has a noticeable "drag" on the cloth, and then when you get to the non-polished area it glides again. When applying the wet shellac on the dried existing shellac, you have to polish through the different areas, hence the name French Polish. It's completely wrong to what we were taught in brushing technique, where we are blend the wet edges. It's kind of like the alcohol melts the dry orange peal areas into one smooth continuous surface.
Practice makes perfect.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 14, 2015 10:12:14 GMT -8
Yes, work with the grain, wood finishing 101. Spraying is fine but I do want to learn to better work this stuff by hand. Thanks for the input. Well........I like Shellac, and French Polishing, but it does, and does not like to do certain things.
As you already mentioned, it does NOT like any heat. The colder the ambient temperature, the slower the alcohol evaporates, and the easier it is to keep a wet edge. Never, apply it in the sun, or allow the sun to warm a freshly done piece until it's fully cured, as the wet alcohol will "pucker" the lower coats. Make sure the product, and the materials to be coated have acclimated to the cooler area you will be working in. IE, don't take a piece of paneling out of a warm house, and then try to apply the shellac in a cold garage, let the paneling sit in the cold area first, if that makes any sense?
Just like if you were polishing your truck, never work an larger area than you can keep wet. In a perfect environment, it's maybe only 12" to 18" square done at a time. I think you discovered the importance of this on your test piece which came out nice. The trick is to learn how to "seamlessly blend" the small sections together.
I cut the "store bought" can by 25 to 30% with denatured alcohol, it helps the product flow, and makes the new product coats your adding, melt into, and adhere to the old coats to prevent the build up's and streaking you experienced. The first coat is the hardest coat for me to keep from turning splotchy, as it just wants to soak into the raw wood. I will be trying the Zinsser sanding sealer spoken about earlier to see it helps the first coats. I never sand any time before the third to fourth coat, then only a light scuff sand with a stiff block and 320. I use a straight edge razor blade a lot. I use it at 90 degrees to the surface, and scrape off any boogers, drips, runs, insects, bird droppings (I work outside under a large tree). If you have a really bad goof up area, just a little alcohol on a red 3M scuff pad will smooth it out without removing everything. I try to coat "full sheets" laying flat on saw horses. It's just faster, and easier for me to do a full sheet "laying flat" to about the 90% done level, and forget about the waste. When they are standing up you will be fighting runs, and not be able to focus on blending. After the sheets are cut and mounted, I just give it a final scuff sand, and apply the final coat, "before" I apply the trim welting to the wall edges.
With all of the above said and done, you still will not be happy until you discover the following technique. Think about how the cloth "feels" when you are wiping the dried polish off of your truck finish. The cloth glides across the newly polished area, "until" it reaches the dried polish area which has a noticeable "drag" on the cloth, and then when you get to the non-polished area it glides again. When applying the wet shellac on the dried existing shellac, you have to polish through the different areas, hence the name French Polish. It's completely wrong to what we were taught in brushing technique, where we are blend the wet edges. It's kind of like the alcohol melts the dry orange peal areas into one smooth continuous surface.
Practice makes perfect.
Thanks John, that helps. Let me first say that my results aren't bad at all, most would probably say it looks very good, especially for my first try, but much to my detriment, I am my own worst critic and thus am not completely satisfied with it. Reading your response re-affirms that it wasn't my methodology or working conditions as I did everything you mentioned, felt the glide and drag and did my best to polish in the overlaps. I did work with the shellac straight out of the can which likely added to the build up I struggled with. I was already planning to thin it down next go around so we'll see how that works. I think your last comment sums it up, practice makes perfect.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on May 14, 2015 10:24:43 GMT -8
John, thanks so much for typing this information all out. Of course most of that info is in my videos but I think a lot of people don't have the time or patience to watch them. They can get very boring because they are not meant for entertainment.
About the only thing I would add to your post is the type of brush used. I buy very expensive brushes. My 3 inch flat brush is $30 plus at a real paint store like Dunn Edwards. I use the Corona Edge Pro 3 inch and for smaller areas like cabinet styles I use a 2.5 inch Corona Pro Edge slanted brush. I go through a lot of denatured alcohol cleaning them and putting them back in their holsters (comes with them) between each coat. I run new unused alcohol over them 3 times before putting them away. Then they still need to be softened with a little alcohol before each use. These brushes are made in the USA. If taken care of they will last for at least 2 trailers before they need to be replaced and sometimes 3. I have yet to lose a bristle from one. That is very important.
I haven't done the french polish yet but will most likely try it some day when I'm not in so much of a hurry to get done. Would have to be my own trailer of course. I know how good it looks so I will give it a shot some day. Thanks again for typing all that out.
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turbodaddy
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Post by turbodaddy on May 14, 2015 15:02:05 GMT -8
I actually have gotten good results with foam 1 1/2" brushes,25% thinned shellac.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 14, 2015 18:38:30 GMT -8
Larry, I use NO brushes, and therefore NO wasted alcohol in cleaning up $30 brushes. I waste NO time cleaning up either. My applicator is a well used six inch square piece of cotton T-Shirt material.
My clean up process is as follows, 1) open the shellac can, 2) drop the rag into the shellac can, 3) close the lid. Done! It's always found in the same spot when I get ready for the next coat.
I use the same piece of T-Shirt for multiple trailers as it does not wear out, it does not dry out (in the can with wet shellac), never needs cleaned, and cost is almost nothing.
I'm certainly not saying that the French polishing technique is as fast as spraying, but when you take into the equation the time of cleaning spray equipment, or cleaning quality brushes, it all works out about the same.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on May 14, 2015 20:17:00 GMT -8
Ya I haven't done the french polish yet. Going to try it out on the next one. But when using a brush, you really need to use a good brush and take very good care of it. I never even heard of the french polish until one of my viewers with a 59 Deville did it and told me about it. I've posted his blog on the technique here on the forum a couple of times. Just haven't done it yet...
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Post by 62shastacrazymom on May 30, 2015 20:53:44 GMT -8
Larry, I use NO brushes, and therefore NO wasted alcohol in cleaning up $30 brushes. I waste NO time cleaning up either. My applicator is a well used six inch square piece of cotton T-Shirt material. My clean up process is as follows, 1) open the shellac can, 2) drop the rag into the shellac can, 3) close the lid. Done! It's always found in the same spot when I get ready for the next coat. I use the same piece of T-Shirt for multiple trailers as it does not wear out, it does not dry out (in the can with wet shellac), never needs cleaned, and cost is almost nothing. I'm certainly not saying that the French polishing technique is as fast as spraying, but when you take into the equation the time of cleaning spray equipment, or cleaning quality brushes, it all works out about the same. John,
I have been doing this the last two years, and about 4-5 coats later on my trailer. I did not know it had a name. I use a soft "surgery" rag which is as soft as a t-shirt, and I re-use it again and again until it becomes stiff. I have never had an issue with overlapping, and my new birch looks really warm (I think)...It does take a lot of time and seems I am always wanting to apply a new coat...Should I be sealing it now? I didn't know I should seal......
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on May 30, 2015 21:10:04 GMT -8
Larry, I use NO brushes, and therefore NO wasted alcohol in cleaning up $30 brushes. I waste NO time cleaning up either. My applicator is a well used six inch square piece of cotton T-Shirt material. My clean up process is as follows, 1) open the shellac can, 2) drop the rag into the shellac can, 3) close the lid. Done! It's always found in the same spot when I get ready for the next coat. I use the same piece of T-Shirt for multiple trailers as it does not wear out, it does not dry out (in the can with wet shellac), never needs cleaned, and cost is almost nothing. I'm certainly not saying that the French polishing technique is as fast as spraying, but when you take into the equation the time of cleaning spray equipment, or cleaning quality brushes, it all works out about the same. John,
I have been doing this the last two years, and about 4-5 coats later on my trailer. I did not know it had a name. I use a soft "surgery" rag which is as soft as a t-shirt, and I re-use it again and again until it becomes stiff. I have never had an issue with overlapping, and my new birch looks really warm (I think)...It does take a lot of time and seems I am always wanting to apply a new coat...Should I be sealing it now? I didn't know I should seal......
If it were me, I would not put anything on top of the shellac. The reason is, that's its very easy to repair a damaged area if nothing is on top. Just sand and feather edge the scratch, and start laying the coats on the sanded area until the color/depth matches the surrounding area. I do not sand any coats until I have at least four coats on, then only a light scuff to knock off the boogers, and debris. If you get any drips, just use some denatured alcohol and rub them out. If you store the application rag "in the shellac can", it never gets hard.
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Post by 62shastacrazymom on May 30, 2015 21:25:09 GMT -8
John,
I have been doing this the last two years, and about 4-5 coats later on my trailer. I did not know it had a name. I use a soft "surgery" rag which is as soft as a t-shirt, and I re-use it again and again until it becomes stiff. I have never had an issue with overlapping, and my new birch looks really warm (I think)...It does take a lot of time and seems I am always wanting to apply a new coat...Should I be sealing it now? I didn't know I should seal......
If it were me, I would not put anything on top of the shellac. The reason is, that's its very easy to repair a damaged area if nothing is on top. Just sand and feather edge the scratch, and start laying the coats on the sanded area until the color/depth matches the surrounding area. I do not sand any coats until I have at least four coats on, then only a light scuff to knock off the boogers, and debris. If you get any drips, just use some denatured alcohol and rub them out. If you store the application rag "in the shellac can", it never gets hard. What a good tip....storing it in the can..super basic but a great tip. I will shellac for hours and patiently matching each piece and I really am liking the final product. It is so warm and inviting. It looks even as for now, but I have already seen our electrician ding a board on accident and I have smoothed it out with just the shellac alone. I will try the denatured alcohol. I think I have one drip as well and I will try it on that. Thanks so much. I need to learn how to post pictures here. we have a ton now that we are nearing the end of a 3 year love hate rebuild.
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on May 30, 2015 21:37:15 GMT -8
If it were me, I would not put anything on top of the shellac. The reason is, that's its very easy to repair a damaged area if nothing is on top. Just sand and feather edge the scratch, and start laying the coats on the sanded area until the color/depth matches the surrounding area. I do not sand any coats until I have at least four coats on, then only a light scuff to knock off the boogers, and debris. If you get any drips, just use some denatured alcohol and rub them out. If you store the application rag "in the shellac can", it never gets hard. What a good tip....storing it in the can..super basic but a great tip. I will shellac for hours and patiently matching each piece and I really am liking the final product. It is so warm and inviting. It looks even as for now, but I have already seen our electrician ding a board on accident and I have smoothed it out with just the shellac alone. I will try the denatured alcohol. I think I have one drip as well and I will try it on that. Thanks so much. I need to learn how to post pictures here. we have a ton now that we are nearing the end of a 3 year love hate rebuild. Well........If you like those "old guy" ideas........here's another. Use a common straight edge razor blade, held at a 90 degree angle to the work surface to scrap off the drip. If you are careful, you will be able to scrap/plane off the drip without digging into or damaging the finished surface. Works good for getting the "bug parts" off the finished panel when they fly into the wet surface. If you catch the drips while it still wet, or soft, the alcohol works good. If it's hard use the razor blade.
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Post by 62shastacrazymom on May 31, 2015 18:50:28 GMT -8
What a good tip....storing it in the can..super basic but a great tip. I will shellac for hours and patiently matching each piece and I really am liking the final product. It is so warm and inviting. It looks even as for now, but I have already seen our electrician ding a board on accident and I have smoothed it out with just the shellac alone. I will try the denatured alcohol. I think I have one drip as well and I will try it on that. Thanks so much. I need to learn how to post pictures here. we have a ton now that we are nearing the end of a 3 year love hate rebuild. Well........If you like those "old guy" ideas........here's another. Use a common straight edge razor blade, held at a 90 degree angle to the work surface to scrap off the drip. If you are careful, you will be able to scrap/plane off the drip without digging into or damaging the finished surface. Works good for getting the "bug parts" off the finished panel when they fly into the wet surface. If you catch the drips while it still wet, or soft, the alcohol works good. If it's hard use the razor blade. Holy cow, you old guys know these great tricks. haha....I tried it today and it worked beautifully. Im sure I have more imperfections and drips, so I will use it again when I have more time to fine tune. The bug tip is good, as we are in the country and have a crapload of little flies and gnats...only that seem to find me when I am painting and shellacing. I am having a really hard time shellacing the original magazine rack. The wood is so dark, and it is so thin that I cannot sand a whole lot. I have applied 3 coats, but it looks different than our new birch. Guess that is to be expected? It will probably look okay when we hang it, but it bugs me now. Thanks again for the help.
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