mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on May 12, 2015 16:16:41 GMT -8
OK I don't know if this is varnish or a poly but what ever it is, this is what happens over time if you put anything over shellac that is not alcohol based. Shellac has wax in it so nothing else will stick to it for long periods of time. A while back we had someone argue that putting varnish over shellac would work just fine. Everything I have read about shellac says different and this picture shows what happens.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 12, 2015 16:42:45 GMT -8
Obviously you are referring to traditional shellac, not the de-waxed variety.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on May 12, 2015 16:54:40 GMT -8
Obviously you are referring to traditional shellac, not the de-waxed variety. I didn't know there was a de-waxed version. This shellac is 60 years old and someone put something over it. This is the outcome. With all the time it takes to sand down a trailer full of birch and put new finish on it I wouldn't risk putting anything else over shellac other than more shellac. No reason to. The shellac I use is Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac. On the can it says Traditional Finish And Sealer. Directions say not recommended for use UNDER polyurethane.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 12, 2015 18:22:18 GMT -8
Obviously you are referring to traditional shellac, not the de-waxed variety. I didn't know there was a de-waxed version. This shellac is 60 years old and someone put something over it. This is the outcome. With all the time it takes to sand down a trailer full of birch and put new finish on it I wouldn't risk putting anything else over shellac other than more shellac. No reason to. The shellac I use is Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac. On the can it says Traditional Finish And Sealer. Directions say not recommended for use UNDER polyurethane. Shellac.net is a great resource for everything shellac. www.shellac.net/
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 12, 2015 19:13:05 GMT -8
Does anyone have "first hand" experience with using dried shellac powder, and mixing your own with denatured alcohol as you need it?
Seems like it would have to be cheaper than paying almost $14/qt. for Bulls Eye, then they hit you with the CA "paint fee" tax per quart.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on May 12, 2015 19:47:33 GMT -8
I didn't know there was a de-waxed version. This shellac is 60 years old and someone put something over it. This is the outcome. With all the time it takes to sand down a trailer full of birch and put new finish on it I wouldn't risk putting anything else over shellac other than more shellac. No reason to. The shellac I use is Zinsser Bulls Eye Shellac. On the can it says Traditional Finish And Sealer. Directions say not recommended for use UNDER polyurethane. Shellac.net is a great resource for everything shellac. www.shellac.net/Thanks for the link RinTin. I highly suggest that anyone wanting to put varnish or poly over shellac use a De-Waxed shellac LOL. Although I still don't know why someone would want to do such a thing.
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turbodaddy
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Post by turbodaddy on May 13, 2015 3:07:21 GMT -8
Zinsser makes a product called "sanding sealer" which we used to fill up the grain on teak rubrails on power boats prior to applying at least 6 coats of spar varnish. It is "de-waxed" shellac. Really nice to work with because you can apply coat after coat in a short amount of time, then sand perfectly smooth before varnish. The spar varnish provides UV protection. In South Florida the sun and salt will eat up the top 2-3 coats of varnish in a season. By using this technique we'd never have to go all the way back down to bare wood, just lightly sand and add a couple fresh coats of varnish each spring.
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kirkadie
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Post by kirkadie on May 13, 2015 4:27:48 GMT -8
Mix-your-own shellac is the way to go here. De-waxed shellac is available in flakes and mixed with denatured alcohol, makes an ideal undercoat for many more weather resistant outer finishes. As Turbodaddy says, the sanding sealer works great under varnishes and can easily be tinted with alcohol soluable powder dyes. Mix-your-owns also have a longer shelf life (while still in the dry form) than canned shellacs which go bad in an alarmingly short time, especially once the can has been opened.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 13, 2015 9:21:56 GMT -8
Thanks, Great practical shellac information guys.
I have been looking at some finishing products sold at my Hardwoods Dealer. They are "water based" tints, I don't remember the brand name. They have about twenty shades, and they are also mixable for custom colors. They are then clear coated with a water based top coat. They tell me they work really well, easy spray clean up, not smelly, etc, etc. But being an old school guy, it's hard for me to switch.
Any input from the wood workers is appreciated.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 13, 2015 13:11:27 GMT -8
I was a custom cabinet maker and countertop fabricator for about 10 years. Struggled to make much of a living at it so I moved on and became a dealer instead. Shellac is new to me as I primarily sprayed catalyzed lacquers and conversion varnishes, but I am no stranger to wood finishing. In my experience, one problem with water based finishes is they don't bring out the depth and character of the wood very well at all, leaving it looking flat and lifeless. My wife (she has asthma) and I recently re-finished an old mahogany Duncan Phyfe dining table with what was supposed to be a top quality water based finish recommended by our local professional paint store. We are very disappointed in the results. This table should have just popped and instead it looks like poop. I have since learned that using a de-waxed shellac sanding sealer/base coat helps, but after this experience I would need to see an example firsthand before I ever consider a water based finish again. Another thing I don't like about water based finishes is that the wood underneath it doesn't oxidize and naturally change color like it does with more traditional finishes. This is especially noticeable in woods like Cherry and Fir that dramatically darken as they age. If you are thinking about trying something different, a product I can highly recommend is Sikkens Cetol Door and Window finish. www.perfectwoodstains.com/view-product/cetol-door-window?category=doors-windowsIt is a slower drying, solvent based product that lays down and flows out very nicely. I have only brush applied it, using a medium stiff natural bristle brush, on a set of VG Fir exterior doors. With finishing, technique is just as important as product selection. These doors were brushed laying flat. After applying, the finish flowed out and the brush strokes totally disappeared. It dried to a very nice sheen, super smooth to the touch and really brought out the character of the wood. Because it is solvent based, it off gasses for a few weeks but the smell is nothing compared to the 2-part finishes I used to spray.
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turbodaddy
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Post by turbodaddy on May 13, 2015 16:19:27 GMT -8
Greg, In my last post I was referring to teak refinishing on yachts...most owners prefer varnish,BUT there are some that don't want that much maintenance. Those guy were always trying "new" miracle products, their dock boxes would be full of old cans of crappy products. The absolute worst was called "Permateak". It was nasty looking even on freshly prepped teak and only got worse as it deteriorated. Then the only way to get it off was to use water and a scraper. I think it was an acrylic thus water helped soften it. We eventually came across "Sikkens Cetol" which worked amazingly well as a varnish alternative.I can't remember exactly what color it was. Didn't look nearly as nice as varnish, but sort of looked like a stained / oiled finish. The stuff really held up in the South Florida heat and sun. Since then I've used it on deck railings as well. Great product.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on May 13, 2015 19:44:59 GMT -8
Thanks again guys. You confirm my limited experience.
I only finish a couple of trailer interiors per year, so it's not that big of a deal to me on the possible time savings for all of the miracle new products. I'm sure if I were into a production environment, I might feel differently. I like using the French Polish method for applying the shellac because I can toss the wiping cloth into the shellac can, and only do as many pieces and coats as I want at a time. There's virtually no clean up, or product loss.
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RinTin
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Post by RinTin on May 13, 2015 20:03:34 GMT -8
Greg, In my last post I was referring to teak refinishing on yachts...most owners prefer varnish,BUT there are some that don't want that much maintenance. Those guy were always trying "new" miracle products, their dock boxes would be full of old cans of crappy products. The absolute worst was called "Permateak". It was nasty looking even on freshly prepped teak and only got worse as it deteriorated. Then the only way to get it off was to use water and a scraper. I think it was an acrylic thus water helped soften it. We eventually came across "Sikkens Cetol" which worked amazingly well as a varnish alternative.I can't remember exactly what color it was. Didn't look nearly as nice as varnish, but sort of looked like a stained / oiled finish. The stuff really held up in the South Florida heat and sun. Since then I've used it on deck railings as well. Great product. Yes , Sikkens Cetol Marine used to only come tinted, which compared visually to traditional marine varnishes left something to be desired, but its durability is considered tops. They now have clear which is a vast improvement, although some yachting purists still eschew it. I use it on my small sailboat.
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Post by RinTin on May 13, 2015 21:23:24 GMT -8
Thanks again guys. You confirm my limited experience. I only finish a couple of trailer interiors per year, so it's not that big of a deal to me on the possible time savings for all of the miracle new products. I'm sure if I were into a production environment, I might feel differently. I like using the French Polish method for applying the shellac because I can toss the wiping cloth into the shellac can, and only do as many pieces and coats as I want at a time. There's virtually no clean up, or product loss. Just last night I put the final coat of shellac on the walls of my Aloha. I used the Zinsser traditional shellac that everyone else here is using, three coats of amber and two coats of clear. This was my first experience with the stuff, I wanted to do it by hand to get a good feel for the product and I must say, it was a real struggle for me. I coated the entire walls at once and for the life of me, I could not get the overlaps to my satisfaction. I too tried the French Polish method and each time I added shellac to my pad, I just could not get it to blend well with the previous application. I tried everything, putting it on from super thin to heavy, varying the amount and type of oil on the pad, working fast trying to keep a wet edge. I also went out and bought a very nice fine natural bristle brush and tried every brushing technique I could think of. My problem was this stuff gets tacky so fast that the overlaps build up instead of blending in and when I pulled back into the wet edge and lifted the rag or brush it would lift up on the shellac as well, and it wouldn't lay back down. While doing the walls, I also did a small 16" x 30" piece of plywood as a control sample. That piece turned out great as I could coat the entire thing with one wiping. I wish I could say that things improved as I went along but it was just more of the same. In the end I sprayed the final coat, which is how I will be applying it next time. To look at this picture you might think it looks great but it is not near the quality that I am used to doing. The picture has a lot of reflection but if you look closely you can see the darker overlap areas running horizontally. I am not giving up, but man, this is a very different product than what I am used to.
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Post by vikx on May 13, 2015 23:49:27 GMT -8
Shellac is Forgiving and Unforgiving... I'm thinking it's not for a fine quality cabinet finisher. I like it because of the glow and easy touch up.
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