ladywendolyn
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1964 Golden Falcon
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Post by ladywendolyn on Nov 19, 2014 13:18:14 GMT -8
Since finding out that I will have to replace all the skin, and possibly all the framing on my trailer, my mind started turning on new options for a layout since I am going to have to build from the ground up. We only have the two of us to please with this trailer, so I am not interested in multiple beds. If we bring our grandson, I can install a hanging bunk bracket, or just put some cusions on the floor etc. My question is this.. Is there any reason, that I can not create a layout like this in the photo? It would give us a full sized bed, a larger kitchen and a wet bath with a shower. It would mean installing black and grey tanks, but I am going to assume that this is possible. My trailer is a 13 footer. I was originally going to put the kitchen in the front, but the big window is sitting at 30 inches from the floor and I don't want to move it. I am pretty brave about this re-build, but I don't want to move the windows too much except the rear ones which would be moved up to the same height as the front ones.. Thanks for your input ...
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Nov 19, 2014 15:43:17 GMT -8
Since finding out that I will have to replace all the skin, and possibly all the framing on my trailer, my mind started turning on new options for a layout since I am going to have to build from the ground up. We only have the two of us to please with this trailer, so I am not interested in multiple beds. If we bring our grandson, I can install a hanging bunk bracket, or just put some cusions on the floor etc. My question is this.. Is there any reason, that I can not create a layout like this in the photo? It would give us a full sized bed, a larger kitchen and a wet bath with a shower. It would mean installing black and grey tanks, but I am going to assume that this is possible. My trailer is a 13 footer. I was originally going to put the kitchen in the front, but the big window is sitting at 30 inches from the floor and I don't want to move it. I am pretty brave about this re-build, but I don't want to move the windows too much except the rear ones which would be moved up to the same height as the front ones.. Thanks for your input ...
IMO, likely doubtful in a 13' trailer, if it has a traditional 1950's canned ham shape. Might be possible if it's built like a 1970's BOX LIKE trailer.
The issues I see are the location of the toilet. If it's that close to the rear wall, your going to hit your head when sitting, much less "think about us guys" standing. Another issue with the rear most toilet location is you need to have clearance under the rear of the trailer when pulling into, and out of gas stations with steep curbs/sidewalks. You do not want the drain pipe tearing off under the trailer. Plans that keep the drain pipes closer to the tire have less dragging problems. Remember you need some drop in the pipes to allow for drainage. You also need to take into consideration of where you can place the black and grey tanks that will not effect (at least minimize) the center of gravity for tongue weight.
Is this trailer mainly being built for dry camping? We have had good service using "no tanks", and just ten feet of three inch ABS drain pipe. It will hold a day or two of use for the two of us, then we dump it when we get connected at the camp ground. The weight balance thing is a BIG issue on a small single axle trailer, and water is something close to 8# per gallon, so it's easy to shift a couple of hundred pounds from a fresh tank into a drain tank. Your not going to find a lot of extra space under a 13' trailer for three tanks, plus plumbing. It's actually easier to build a larger tandem axle trailer when you start adding all of the amenities.
I'd suggest that you start out by reversing your toilet and bathroom sink for a easier solution to your drain issue. It's easier to run a 1 1/2" sink drain with a tight bend. Maybe even delete the bathroom sink, and use the kitchen sink. After all it's only a 13' trailer, so it's not like it's in a different room.
Something looks wrong to me about the scale size. Most 13' trailers are only 6 1/2 foot wide. Yours looks like it seven feet wide. Or maybe it's that the walls are too wide in your drawing. If I were building from "almost scratch" like your thinking, I'd "go with a seven foot wide trailer"! Six inches might not sound like much, but it's a HUGE GAIN in workable space inside the trailer. It's also much more open.
It's surprising how much thought goes into building such a small house! LOL
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Post by bigbill on Nov 19, 2014 16:00:10 GMT -8
As John said plus how many people is it going to sleep where? Also when the beds are folded out will you be able to walk to the bathroom, or anyplace else? If you are using a porta-potti that solves some of the weight and drain problems. but it looks like you are putting most of the weight behind the axle. Remember you need at least 10% of your total loaded weight on the hitch. That is one of the reason a compact Shasta has the kitchen in the front and most of the rest has it over the axle.
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ladywendolyn
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Post by ladywendolyn on Nov 19, 2014 17:26:23 GMT -8
My plan for the appliances is to put the stove over the curb side axle, and place the fridge in the dead Center rear. I would be installing a 70 pound air conditioning unit that I have sourced over the street side axel. The actual trailer is almost 7 feet wide... Maybe Canadian trailers were made wider... I will go the full 7 feet as you are suggesting. There will only be the two of us, so the front bed will the bed. I plan it to pull out sideways like a typical Goucho. I have seen a set up for the wet bath that has the black tank built in under the toilet. I have included it below. I will switch the toilet layout around. I am not sure what I could add to the front to increase the weight on the tongue... The spare tire on one side, and the water tank on the other side with a balancing amount of water? Would that work?)
I have seen trailers with the kitchen at the back.. So I know it's possible... Just need to sort out the placement. I am also thinking of simply buying a large portable type grey tank that can be placed under the trailer and carried with us till we need it.... Does that sound do-able?
if I put the kitchen at the front, I would need to lift the window up by three inches... Perhaps this is not as much of a problem as I am anticipating. My concern is that it is such a big window already that three inches higher and I may be up into the curve with it.
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Post by vikx on Nov 19, 2014 21:02:49 GMT -8
I would like to see at least one support on the door side for the roof/upper cabinets. The bath wall and closet add support to the street side.
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ladywendolyn
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Post by ladywendolyn on Nov 19, 2014 21:43:21 GMT -8
I would like to see at least one support on the door side for the roof/upper cabinets. The bath wall and closet add support to the street side. I am planning to add some kind of retro shelf stack joining the bottom cabinet with the top, just inside the door, maybe something like the one in this photo, only it could just go from the counter to under the cabinet. (The bottom two shelves. ) Do you think this could provide enough support or does it have to be a wall? I could likely run a post at the back and front of the shelves for extra stability. wall?
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Post by vikx on Nov 19, 2014 21:49:12 GMT -8
I think a cool support like that would work, as long it was very sturdy. Put backers inside the wall for the shelf back, too.
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Post by bigbill on Nov 20, 2014 5:23:57 GMT -8
I think that most of the trailers with a rear kitchen are longer with the wheels set more to the rear. If you pull the bed out sideways enough to make a comfortable double bed 54" standard width will you have room to walk between the bed and the stove/refrigerator to get to the restroom during the night. If you wind up with 80 inches inside width and the bed opens 54 inches and the stove and frig cabinet is held to twenty inches wide that leaves a six inch space to walk through, and if the bed goes to Queen size that leaves you zero inches aisle space. Also no matter where the Black water tank is you still will need to have drain plumbing down under the trailer and out to where you can get to it, in other words probably 4 to 6 inches below the frame. I would consider doing away with the hand sink, move the closet to where the toilet is now and the toilet to the closet location. It is difficult to make accurate guesses without correct measurements of each thing you are planing plus the exact size of the trailer and the axle center in relation to the trailer floor. Another thought is put the kitchen in the front add three inches to the cabinet width then make a window well three inches wide that would hold decorative items if done right it would be very classy and novel.
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ladywendolyn
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Post by ladywendolyn on Nov 20, 2014 7:12:58 GMT -8
Thanks Big Bill.. I have thought of the window well idea... I guess at tis point I am going to finish stripping it down to the frame, and go from there. I think I can pretty much get the basic frame back up without knowing thing the exact layout. I will get some measurements once everything is out and off of the axels and I can see a bit better how tight the curve is at the back as well..
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Post by bigbill on Nov 20, 2014 8:55:28 GMT -8
Another thought if you make the trailer wider you should have a wider trailer axle or you will have the wheel wells sticking farther into the trailer than necessary plus the trailer will lose some side to side stability. Of course you could build a whole new frame with new axles moved farther back to put more weight on the tongue plus add a few feet to the length to accommodate a larger bathroom. The only problem as you go wider and longer before long you will have the long, long trailer. Seriously on a complete rebuild with design changes your possibilities are unlimited. I would suggest you buy some graph paper and draw everything to scale including wall thickness. then figure how you are going to construct it (with what materials) then figure the weight per foot or square foot of each piece that will be used. Now add in the weight for glamping items you will add (realize that some of these will require your best guess) and food clothing and anything else you can think of and where they will be in your plan. Don't forget water and waste water plus tanks and pipes. This will allow you to figure the balance point to place the axle for proper towing. This is what is required for a properly built redesign. Also remember that most trailers use walls and closets to add strength to the body so that it doesn't collapse side ways. I know this sounds like a pain in the *** but it will be worth the effort in the long run. You must also check for clearance for opening doors and will they be in the way when open (can you get past for access) then will beds slide out/unfold to the desired width, do they block access to rest of trailer will there be room to move when trailer is setup for sleeping. Are we having fun yet? If you do all of this correctly you will have a unit that will do what you want and you will have a sense of pride beyond belief when people think they are looking at a sixty year old trailer that looks and works like it was just built and only you and your hair dresser will know for sure.
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Post by danrhodes on Nov 20, 2014 11:10:13 GMT -8
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Nov 20, 2014 21:25:59 GMT -8
Thanks Big Bill.. I have thought of the window well idea... I guess at tis point I am going to finish stripping it down to the frame, and go from there. I think I can pretty much get the basic frame back up without knowing thing the exact layout. I will get some measurements once everything is out and off of the axels and I can see a bit better how tight the curve is at the back as well.. I would advise against this idea. It's much easier to make changes on paper with an eraser. 1/4" graph paper is your friend. Cut out all your fixtures "to scale" then you can move them around on the graph paper until everything fits.
By the time you have the walls back up, you are committed to the window placement, and the paneling will be on and you will not be able to move window locations around. A couple of inches up/down or back/forth is the difference of making everything fit inside a 13 foot box.
Plan it out, even if you just draw on the floor with blue chalk, as I often do. If you take apart some old trailers, you will find brown paper nailed under the cabinets and seats. It's my belief that they laid the marmoleum flooring, then covered it with a brown paper that had the floor plan on it for the specific trailer they were building. My Mallard had three optional floor plans for the same length trailer. Then they nailed/screwed the fixtures into place over the paper, left the paper for protection during construction, and cut it out with a razor knife at the time of completion. You could cover your floor with brown paper, make as many changes as necessary, when your happy, start the build on top of the paper. Kinda like designing in "full scale".
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ladywendolyn
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Post by ladywendolyn on Nov 20, 2014 21:29:08 GMT -8
Another thought if you make the trailer wider you should have a wider trailer axle or you will have the wheel wells sticking farther into the trailer than necessary plus the trailer will lose some side to side stability. Of course you could build a whole new frame with new axles moved farther back to put more weight on the tongue plus add a few feet to the length to accommodate a larger bathroom. The only problem as you go wider and longer before long you will have the long, long trailer. Seriously on a complete rebuild with design changes your possibilities are unlimited. I would suggest you buy some graph paper and draw everything to scale including wall thickness. then figure how you are going to construct it (with what materials) then figure the weight per foot or square foot of each piece that will be used. Now add in the weight for glamping items you will add (realize that some of these will require your best guess) and food clothing and anything else you can think of and where they will be in your plan. Don't forget water and waste water plus tanks and pipes. This will allow you to figure the balance point to place the axle for proper towing. This is what is required for a properly built redesign. Also remember that most trailers use walls and closets to add strength to the body so that it doesn't collapse side ways. I know this sounds like a pain in the *** but it will be worth the effort in the long run. You must also check for clearance for opening doors and will they be in the way when open (can you get past for access) then will beds slide out/unfold to the desired width, do they block access to rest of trailer will there be room to move when trailer is setup for sleeping. Are we having fun yet? If you do all of this correctly you will have a unit that will do what you want and you will have a sense of pride beyond belief when people think they are looking at a sixty year old trailer that looks and works like it was just built and only you and your hair dresser will know for sure. One question.. I have been thinking about adding a belly pan (I think it's called) to accommodate some of the pipes. I saw that Vikx had a trailer where that was done. It looked like an insulated base under the floor. Since I will have to go from the frame up is there any reason I can not add that? I am ordering new skin, so I can be a couple of inches taller in terms of skin because I will just order it bigger. If I did this... Does anyone know how deep the pan usually is? My trailer has a very nice and currently unnecessary steel pull out step that could easily accommodate a slightly higher step up. After talking to my husband, we are going to leave the base foot print the existing size, and the walls the same shape curve. (It's the trailer in my profile picture). He wants us to have the existing "pattern" to work from that way, and doesn't want to have to reconfigure a wider axle. I am allowed to configure the inside anyway that I want that is actually balanced and workable. Oh.. and by the way.. my other trailer is 30 feet long.. so I am not allowed a long, long, trailer as I already have one, and the idea of the vintage one is to have something lighter to pull.. funny how things thing develop though..lol
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Post by bigbill on Nov 21, 2014 5:49:13 GMT -8
Lady W A belly pan usually just fastens up against the bottom of the floor joist/frame. In cold country you would insulate the area then install the pan to protect the insulation. usually the skin would be the same size. It is very easy to get carried away when planning a complete rebuild, that is why I suggest making an accurate scale drawing of all your ideas before starting construction. You see something and think that is only 18 inches square but when you are dealing with a 10 to 15 foot trailer that is a lot. The trick is to design the look you want in the space you have and still keep everything totally usable. I like to list my priorities then decide how to make them all work. My 1500 that I am rebuilding is slightly less than 12 feet long inside, so my list was comfortable bed or beds for two, maximum floor space to move around in, kitchen for quick simple eating. also need a toilet for night use and for when other facilities are not up to standard. I arrived at a design that will allow two very nice twin beds at night, but will allow maximum open floor in the day time with seating for six people in case of visitors. The kitchen will have a microwave, toaster oven, sink, large super insulated ice chest enclosed out of sight, counter space, and a sink. The toilet will be a Thetford curve that will be enclosed in it's own cupboard in the daytime and moved out in the center aisle at night, this eliminates the bother and extra expense/weight of a black water tank. When we travel we do not need our suits or long dresses so no closet everything will be in cabinets that will be built around the walls. This will allow a much more open area making the trailer seem much larger than it actually is. The HVAC will be accomplished by use of a new 5000 btu ac window unit that is built in to the kitchen cabinet area drawing and exhausting it operating air from outside. Heat will be by ceramic heaters as needed. I plan on doing no boon docking, been there done that too old and lazy to do now. I will have a gas drive generator that will allow us to cook or run AC if we stop along the road for a night where there is no power (Walmart parking lot). My idea is too have a comfortable space to live as light as possible in the look of an old trailer. The tongue may (most likely) be extended to haul our two recumbent trikes.
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lakewoodgirl
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Post by lakewoodgirl on Feb 15, 2015 9:19:26 GMT -8
I know I'm chiming in late here, but here's my 2cents for what they're worth. I like the layout but looks like there might be too much weight in the back. And, I agree with John John Palmer (which is starting to become a frightening trend for me...lol) about the toilet. I think it's wishful thinking but not practical for the boys in such a small trailer in that location. And it's additional weight to the rear where you already have some kitchen appliances would probably go if that's how I'm looking at it. Other than that, I like the bed layout. My parents caravan has a similar layout. But, kitchen, tub, toilet, were all streetside, beds in the front, dining in the back, closet, drawers, storage curbside. If I can recall. There's is gutted right now too.
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