mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Jan 28, 2015 11:26:18 GMT -8
Im going to try putting the framing members on my shellac'd ceiling panel prior to installing it, thanks for the tip Mobiltec. Remember just the inside ones. Not the seam edges... Here are some more pics I just took... Don't think about that 7 inch empty space in the top of the camper. That's another story involving the engineering of the total camper.
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Jan 29, 2015 16:03:41 GMT -8
Im going to try putting the framing members on my shellac'd ceiling panel prior to installing it, thanks for the tip Mobiltec. Remember just the inside ones. Not the seam edges... Here are some more pics I just took... Don't think about that 7 inch empty space in the top of the camper. That's another story involving the engineering of the total camper. Thanks for the photos. I'll have to give it a try. Very smart.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Jan 29, 2015 16:44:31 GMT -8
Remember just the inside ones. Not the seam edges... Here are some more pics I just took... Don't think about that 7 inch empty space in the top of the camper. That's another story involving the engineering of the total camper. Thanks for the photos. I'll have to give it a try. Very smart. Head for the "what did you do to your trailer today" thread for the interior pics...
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scotty
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Post by scotty on Feb 21, 2015 8:36:01 GMT -8
Well Mobiltec, NCC and the Rest...I have been following this thread with interest. The part about shellac tinting especially, so I hope it continues to resolution.
I was going to start a thread on Shellac vs. Polyurethane vs. Varnish, but I think this one works well. On my camper, a '64 Holiday Trav'ler, the finish was varnish...I was hoping it was shellac, but it is varnish. Varnish as is known on this website was phenolic resin (pine pitch) and a solvent (paint thinner). It dried by evaporation of the solvent and then got very hard via a chemical reaction with oxygen. It cannot be dissolved once hard. Old varnish could also have been alkyd based (vs. phenolic), but I doubt that was used in our trailers. The polyeurthane based varnishes strictly cure by chemical reaction with oxygen and sunlight; while the solvent does evaporate, the curing takes place over time by chemical reaction. True resin varnish yellows more than polyeurthane based varnish. Lacquer was originally from the LAC beetle too, but by the time Henry Ford lived it was nitrocellulose based...then acrylic based. LACquer and ShelLAC use alcohol (ethanol usually) for the solvent and unlike varnish, new shellac or lacquer dissolves the old layers and makes them like new. Varnish is much more durable though. Like paint, varnish (or Polyurethane) cannot be dissolved to refinish once dried.
Lacquer's solvent became much more than simple ethanol over time and is a highly tailored combo solvent called Lacquer Thinner. It uses the high-flash petroleum distillates plus ketones, esters, ethers and alcohols to create a staged evaporation solvent to regulate the drying of lacquer - flash to avoid drips and then slower to allow the surface to smooth out. I know most know all this, I am just consolidating for new readers. The main point is lacquer can be dissolved by lacquer thinner and shellac can be dissolved with an alcohol. Varnish cannot be dissolved (except to remove it).
So, tinting these finishes is art and technique, right? On the Shasta with the whitewashed finish, is it certain that was a single step process? Or, like cabinetry done back in the 60s when whitewashed lacquer finishes were popular for kitchens, was it a 2-step process? Spray white tinted lacquer on first and then finish with a lacquer clear coat? I know the trailer industry was cheap, so probably it was a single step process and in that case the formula will have to be "rediscovered." However, to match an existing - and seasoned - finish, perhaps a 2-step process can be used? White tinted lacquer or shellac top-coated with a clear shellac? Scotty
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Feb 21, 2015 10:19:40 GMT -8
So, tinting these finishes is art and technique, right? On the Shasta with the whitewashed finish, is it certain that was a single step process? Or, like cabinetry done back in the 60s when whitewashed lacquer finishes were popular for kitchens, was it a 2-step process? Spray white tinted lacquer on first and then finish with a lacquer clear coat? I know the trailer industry was cheap, so probably it was a single step process and in that case the formula will have to be "rediscovered." However, to match an existing - and seasoned - finish, perhaps a 2-step process can be used? White tinted lacquer or shellac top-coated with a clear shellac? Scotty Thanks for the well thought out answer. I think it all comes down to how exact a match do you want. I've tried one step, two step, tinting shellac, tinting poly, diluting, etc. I had samples everywhere in my barn but none matched the tint on our Shasta Compact perfectly. There was also the problem of rough areas: once the finish was sanded smooth there was yet another shade to deal with without the "restoration" coats done over the years. I've read horror stories about people trying to coat over a finish they couldn't clearly identify. Add to all this that we each seem to have a slightly different shade of yellow. So there will never be a one-answer-fit's-all solution. After all my experimenting I came back to the main issue...do I want a finish that is so consistent almost nobody will know repair work was done? In the end, I sanded the entire camper. 5 days with a palm sander is not fun but it gave me a clear, consistent surface to work with. Sorry I can't be more helpful.
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scotty
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Post by scotty on Feb 22, 2015 8:09:14 GMT -8
So NCC, I gather you got a fairly consistent look throughout the trailer by sanding all? Lot's of work!! Good for you.
I have some finish repair to do where a window leaked and where the left rear corner of the roof leaked years ago. The PO fixed the leak, but the varnish lifted and the birch plywood also raised. I believe the structure is okay and there are no "spots" at the nail heads, etc. I do wish to match these small areas - about the size of my hand - to the honeyed color of the old varnish. For the time being, I am just waiting and observing these places as I put the trailer back into service. Meanwhile, I gather info on how best to match these old finishes.
Mobiltec, did you have any satisfactory progress with the white shellac? Scotty
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Feb 22, 2015 15:16:09 GMT -8
So NCC, I gather you got a fairly consistent look throughout the trailer by sanding all? Lot's of work!! It was a lot of work. I know all too well why you want to patch if the walls look good. I went with amber rather than the yellowish tint that was there before.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Feb 22, 2015 20:37:15 GMT -8
So NCC, I gather you got a fairly consistent look throughout the trailer by sanding all? Lot's of work!! Good for you. I have some finish repair to do where a window leaked and where the left rear corner of the roof leaked years ago. The PO fixed the leak, but the varnish lifted and the birch plywood also raised. I believe the structure is okay and there are no "spots" at the nail heads, etc. I do wish to match these small areas - about the size of my hand - to the honeyed color of the old varnish. For the time being, I am just waiting and observing these places as I put the trailer back into service. Meanwhile, I gather info on how best to match these old finishes. Mobiltec, did you have any satisfactory progress with the white shellac? Scotty I haven't even tried yet due to an eye injury that set me back 6 months. Now that trailer is on the back burner until I finish two other projects that must be caught up on.
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Post by bigbill on Feb 23, 2015 7:05:35 GMT -8
I went to buy some shellac a few days ago and discovered that it is not to be found around here. Tried the big box stores and several small paint stores only to be be told they no longer sell it. If the world keeps protecting us from ourselves it won't be long before we won't be able to do anything.
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scotty
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Post by scotty on Feb 23, 2015 8:34:36 GMT -8
NCC, that looks really great! Hats off to you.
I had read about your eye being hurt Mobiltec, but thought it would be better by now...I hope it comes around as our eyes - bad as they become with age - are a lot better than our ears and our strength and our joints... Get better!
And Bill, it is just stupid what certain states demand about paint products. Shellac has been around for centuries...you can eat it even (as long as it isn't stained). It is just protein and alcohol. Hmmmm.....sounds like a bourbon and steak to me!
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SusieQ
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Post by SusieQ on Feb 23, 2015 9:12:27 GMT -8
scotty, that is true. Shellac is a bug secretion, all natural and non toxic. It's the additives that kill you.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Feb 23, 2015 15:37:47 GMT -8
Shellac is alcohol based and there should be nothing wrong with it in the environment. Bill they tried to do that here in CA and someone stopped it from happening. I don't know who though. Scotty it took two operations and 6 months of being still for the eye to heal. And there is still one more operation and a laser treatment to go before I'm good to go. I started back to work anyhow as you can see and when the 54 Aljoa is done I will get back on the Shasta and see what I can do about the tint. I found out about a knowledgeable person near me who supposedly knows the secret. I will be going there next week sometime to pick his brain.
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scotty
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Post by scotty on Feb 25, 2015 5:32:39 GMT -8
Glad the eye is coming along Mobiltec. I'll be going to some local cabinet shows this spring and I'll start talking more to the refinishing guys...all these years, I have simply stumbled along. I'll share anything useful I come up with.
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Feb 25, 2015 8:29:44 GMT -8
It's my understanding that you can buy "dried" shellac by the pound. It comes in different colors, and you just add Denatured Alcohol.
Make your own, "as you need it", plus at the current cost per quart of shellac (guessing @ $13.00/QT.) we are paying $52.00 per gallon. A gallon of Denatured Alcohol is about $20.00 for a gallon.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Feb 25, 2015 12:24:05 GMT -8
It's my understanding that you can buy "dried" shellac by the pound. It comes in different colors, and you just add Denatured Alcohol. Make your own, "as you need it", plus at the current cost per quart of shellac (guessing @ $13.00/QT.) we are paying $52.00 per gallon. A gallon of Denatured Alcohol is about $20.00 for a gallon. Where?
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