nate
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1963 Comet 17'
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Post by nate on Feb 17, 2018 12:37:13 GMT -8
I finally finished up removing the old hangers, shackles, and leaf springs and installing new. Everything was welded up very square and even. When I re-installed the axle i noticed that the road side hub was almost 1/2" further from the frame than the other side. Took me a while to figure out but it looks like the road side hub is cockeyed. With the trailer reasonably level, and the axle level as well, I took a level straight up on the front and back side of the axle hub and this side is off by quite a bit. This is shown with the level square. Untitled by nate kastle, on Flickr The other side is off just a little but I figure that would straighten out with axle flex with all the weight on it. The axle is not bent and nothing looks stressed or out of place. I'm scratching my head here. Best I can figure is that it was made this way. Can that be possible? I don't have a ton of experience with trailer frames and axles but this doesn't seem normal. I would assume that if the axle bent, the hub would be out of square the other way? Measured from the tongue, it is only out of square by less than 1/4" when measuring to each hub and I assume with weight back on the frame, that could close right up. The axles measure near exact distance from the tongue. Contemplating a new axle but really trying to get building upwards. Can anyone advise?
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ruderunner
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Post by ruderunner on Feb 17, 2018 12:56:40 GMT -8
Not enough information for me in that picture. How does the level look across the top of the axle?
Where are you taking your 1/2" measurements from?
Have you measured the location of the spring pads on the axle vs the hubs?
On many passenger and truck leaf springs there is a front and rear to the spring. Not common on trailer springs but worth measuring.
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nate
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Post by nate on Feb 17, 2018 13:25:36 GMT -8
The level across the top of the axle is good. It's straight and level. The 1/2" measurement difference is taken from the side of the frame rail to the hub, basically the space shown in the picture. One side is 3 3/4" and the other (shown) side is 4 1/4". I'll take the suggested measurements. Both pads lie directly under the frame rails though. It was clear to me when I had the tire on that the top of the tire on this side leaned out. I replaced the original 2" leaf springs with modern 1 3/4" leaf springs but kept the original axle with spring pads. The new leaf springs were the same size as originals and the shackles and hangers were placed roughly at the same spot. They are equal to each other. I did replace the bearings on one side, before towing it home, but that's the only thing I can think of that would have changed (besides new hardware). I thought I read that the spring could go either way but I'll check into that. They both are going the same way. I think I need to leave it be for a day and then come back to look at it. It's driving me a little nuts. Her's another pic for reference. Untitled by nate kastle, on Flickr
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ruderunner
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Post by ruderunner on Feb 17, 2018 15:00:42 GMT -8
He he, I wouldn't get too worked up yet. But let's clarify a couple terms. The hub is actually the part that the wheel bolts to. Check your measurements there. What you're currently measuring is the backing plate of the brakes and those could be bent fairly easily. They're designed to counter rotation forces not axial.
How's the distance between axle and frame compare side to side? Vertically and horizontal.
The springs are held together with center bolts and the bolt heads fit into a hole in the spring pads on the axle, are they snug or sloppy fitting?
I'd say from your teardown pics there's plenty of room in the wheel wells to accommodate the slop. As such as long as the frame is level and square I'd be comfortable building up. One can swap axles later if needed.
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Post by bigbill on Feb 17, 2018 16:55:40 GMT -8
I agree with the above statements. I would build the trailer tow it 15 or 20 miles then measure everything to see where you are at, as long as the tires clear everything. Some times new springs will "settle in" and weird measurements go away. The shackles could be holding one side or the other slightly out of position or the spring leaves might not be in the same position. a very slight difference can make a larger difference at the hub surface. And to answer your question yes it could have been made that way, Some automobiles were manufactured with an allowance of up to four inches in wheelbase from one side to the other. The first time I discovered this I thought the car had been wrecked but after checking the mfgs specs it was only off 2 3/4" and so no problem, except me thinking they were junk. But we had a fleet of them and all drove fine with no excessive tire wear.
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nate
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Post by nate on Feb 17, 2018 17:10:33 GMT -8
Sounds good. I’m relieved to hear this. I’ll start building up, then! Appreciate the feedback.
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Post by vikx on Feb 17, 2018 21:12:56 GMT -8
Can you tell me the torque on the axle U bolts? My axle on the 57 is tipping slightly. (top is not absolutely level) I figured it would straighten out when towed. Or is it something I should loosen up and try to get exact? The U bolts are tight but I'm not sure how tight they should be. Thanks
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ruderunner
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Post by ruderunner on Feb 18, 2018 3:48:06 GMT -8
Bill, 4"? Was this on a big truck?
Vic, do you mean the trailer doesn't sit level or the axle beam itself isn't level?
Either way, u bolt torque isn't the problem. But to answer your question, generally 1/2 20 u bolts torque between 85-100 ftlb, 7/16 55-75, anything smaller is scary to me and it's unlikely you have anything bigger.
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jukebox
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1961 Shasta Airflyte
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Post by jukebox on Feb 18, 2018 7:10:30 GMT -8
It would be best to take a level measurement from the hub face. This is where the back side of the wheel rim mates when installed. If your frame is sitting true then place your level against the hub face and check it there for plumb and level. If you had a couple of magnetic levels that would work great.
Place them both vertical and check for plumb. Then turn your wheel hubs 90 degrees and check for square with a tape measure to the level.
I don't think this angle will change with weight because the hub assembly is so close to the spring mount. Horizontal level ( square ) is more critical because this is a tire wearing angle. ( Toe in or toe out ) like with a car. Vertical is camber and that angle is not as critical for tire wear.
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nate
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Post by nate on Feb 18, 2018 8:57:31 GMT -8
It looks like the bend is just vertical. Both the backing plate and the hub face are out of square, with the trailer squared up. There is no toe in or toe out that I can measure. Seems weird to me that this can happen, especially when I can't locate a bend in the length of the axle or any obvious damage anywhere near the hub. I still think I'm just going to go with it and replace down the road if necessary. I torqued the U bolts down to 100 ft/lbs.
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Post by bigbill on Feb 18, 2018 9:51:11 GMT -8
Bill, 4"? Was this on a big truck? Vic, do you mean the trailer doesn't sit level or the axle beam itself isn't level? Either way, u bolt torque isn't the problem. But to answer your question, generally 1/2 20 u bolts torque between 85-100 ftlb, 7/16 55-75, anything smaller is scary to me and it's unlikely you have anything bigger. This was on a intermediate size american made 4 dr sedan and I couldn't believe that the wheelbase could vary side to side I first time I discovered it I thought the car had been wrecked.
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ruderunner
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Post by ruderunner on Feb 18, 2018 10:55:51 GMT -8
I can't think of anything where a 4" difference wouldn't have a tire jammed into the fenders. Checkers maybe.... Heck my 69 Plymouth that had been wrecked was only off by 3/8"
And jukebox is mostly correct about camber not being much of an issue. Exception is old bias ply tires, excess camber will try to steer the trailer. Think of riding a bicycle with no hands, if you lean a bit it steers itself. Radials aren't prone to this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2018 11:07:13 GMT -8
I believe ruderunner is correct on the wheel base issue. Side to side shouldn't exceed even 1/2". I'm involved in racing and we make 1/4" adjustments from side to side to create huge differences in car tracking that affects understeer or oversteer.
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Post by bigbill on Feb 18, 2018 18:51:25 GMT -8
Gentlemen I have built complete chassis for years and I always kept everything exact, but I took care of a government fleet for years and trust me I am telling you the truth. I really don't wish to name makes or models but if you start checking mfg specs/tolerances on many American cars you will be amazed. I held/hold master tech certs from multiple sources on cars, heavy trucks, fire trucks, and heavy equipment. Many of the things I have discovered over the years would blow your mind. A four inch difference can be accomplished by each of four wheels only being off one inch, and most people wouldn't see that with there naked eye. I still can't believe that they were made that sloppy but they were. As I said above they still rode and drove OK. If you held a position where you tracked thousands of vehicles through there life cycles you might be afraid to go down the highway. Please disregard this post and read the next one. I don't know exactly what happened, but I can't delete it.
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Post by bigbill on Feb 18, 2018 18:53:53 GMT -8
Gentlemen I have built complete chassis for years and I always kept everything exact, but I took care of a government fleet for years and trust me I am telling you the truth. I really don't wish to name makes or models but if you start checking mfg specs/tolerances on many American cars you will be amazed. I held/hold master tech certs from multiple sources on cars, heavy trucks, fire trucks, and heavy equipment. Many of the things I have discovered over the years would blow your mind. A four inch difference can be accomplished by each of four wheels only being off one inch, and most people wouldn't see that with there naked eye. I still can't believe that they were made that sloppy but they were. As I said above they still rode and drove OK. If you held a position where you tracked thousands of vehicles through there life cycles you might be afraid to go down the highway. We are talking about street driven cars not race cars. We all know the difference a change to a race car can make, even a tire changed just one size let alone caster,camber, and spring loads. Then we get into shock rebound and wind loads and the list goes on and on, but most of these would have little effect on a street driven car. I think that the best thing to ever happen was the quest for higher gas mileage, this caused manufacturers to have to hold everything to closer tolerances.
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