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Post by vikx on Sept 29, 2017 21:48:01 GMT -8
OK Everybody, here goes: I'm currently working on Butch Cassidy, Sundance's twin Shasta 1500. The trailer is shocking, in that it has no ROT. I've removed the front and rear skins to inspect and finally decided to stop at the Pittsburg above the windows. Amazing condition and some minor tweaking. (added the missing front/rear cross boards that Shasta skipped) Here is a link: 1957shasta.shutterfly.com/ Check out the gorgeous wood. Ceiling is all original with no water stains. Cabinets have 1 coat of amber shellac and look new. Butch is such a joy to work on. THE PROBLEM: Butch was sitting about 8" off the ground and very difficult to tow home without dragging the rear end. The tires are very low profile 155/80R/15s. Yup, you read that right. Previous drag damage is evident but not bad at this point. We know that the tires have to be changed out. Sundance had 205/75R/15s which had to be flat to mount. However, once on, they fit well and Sundance rides at a good height. Well, surprise, surprise, we couldn't get the low profile tires off Butch, even with the body on stands. (about 4" gained there). Tires wouldn't clear the hub and inside of the wheel well at all. I finally figured out that if I pushed the bottom of the tire under the trailer, they would clear the edge of the wheel well but they are way too low profile to even be used. I tried a 205. Ha Ha, that's a joke. The trailer is way higher than you would tow it on the highway now, I later added 2" on each jack. So now what? An interesting addition is that Butch has brakes. I have never seen another 1500 with brakes. So I need to know if your 1500 has brakes? I was thinking the axle had been changed/too wide? Outside to outside on the springs measures 48". Outside to outside on the backing plate is 60 1/2". The axle is U bolted under the springs with the arms in the up position. Everything looks original. Flipping the axle could work; Big Bill will shoot me-I know the toe in/out will be wrong. Sorry this is so long. It's a complicated and weird problem, one I haven't run into before. When I say the wheel and tire will not clear, I MEAN THAT. Changing a flat tire on the road would not be an option. Tonight, I decided to remove the brakes and see what that does for clearance. That is the only difference between Sundance and Butch. Could removing the backing plate give me that much more wiggle room?? Thank you. This is a conundrum.
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Post by bigbill on Sept 30, 2017 2:05:54 GMT -8
vikx My first thought is has the springs lost their arch. Maybe someone had them re-arched to lower the trailer for easier access. As for brakes 2nd generation had brakes available not sure when they became a option. I would place a jack between the axle and the frame to force it down a little at a time to see where a standard wheel and tire would fit. Another thought has someone put a wider wheel/rim on when they went to low profile tires. Would a 13" wheel and tire fit? Is the spring bound up not allowing it to drop down as it should? All of this is just food for thought without being able to see what you have in person.
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Post by bigbill on Sept 30, 2017 2:15:31 GMT -8
vixk Looking at your pictures of the yellow and blue trailers comparing the position of the wheel in the wheel well opening the springs have a different arch or something has been done to lower trailer. You should be able to see top of hub cap if it had them, on the blue one you couldn't.
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mrmarty51
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Post by mrmarty51 on Sept 30, 2017 8:16:24 GMT -8
One option woul be to add in spacer blocks between the spring and the axle, probably a four inch would do the trick. If You use steel blocks, just be sure that they are drilled or notched for the U Bolts, and that there is a hole in the center for the springs centering bolts, Or You could also drill that if there is not a centering hole in the blocks. another option would be to get another axle, one with the spindles attached directly to and sticking straight out of the axles tube. That would givey You an increase of height to what the drop spindles are. It may even be possible to get the axle with the same backing plate bolt pattern and spindle size for the hubs/bearings too, the length of the spindle would determine that affect though.
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nccamper
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Post by nccamper on Sept 30, 2017 9:04:12 GMT -8
I really like everything about Butch the 57 Shasta. It’s a rolling miracle. With that said, I had the same issue on a 64 Shasta 1500. The only way to get 205/75/15 tires on was to deflate them. Not a great option on the highway with cars racing by at 70MPH. “I was thinking the axle had been changed/too wide? Outside to outside on the springs measures 48". Outside to outside on the backing plate is 60 1/2". “ What does Sundance measure? If it’s the same (excluding the brakes), how does the spring arch compare? I doubt removing the back plate will help much. My money is on the springs. It looks like the dust cap sits too high in the wheel well. A couple of examples of the wheel position that seem right:
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Post by vikx on Sept 30, 2017 10:27:15 GMT -8
Thank you all! Great observations.
First of all, the existing tires on Butch are ridiculously small. They are low profile 155/80R/15s; the only wheel and tire that the PO could squeeze onto the trailer. And believe me, they are very difficult to mount or dismount. The trailer is not really towable with these tiny tires because it will drag over any bump. The wheels are definitely original to the trailer. I'm pretty sure the PO sold Butch because they couldn't figure out how to tow it.
Sundance had 205/75R/15 wheels and tires which had to be flat to mount, but it was do-able. I have no way to measure Sundance, she is in the Midwest. A temporary (toy) spare is a remedy for on the road flats.
And you are right, this trailer has to be raised. I don't think bigger tires alone will fix the problem. The trailer is still on stands, so I can remove the springs for inspection and possibly have them re-arched. Buying new isn't a very good option because they are different in length, so the brackets have to be moved.
A new axle might be a solution and/or riser blocks but I will focus on the springs first.
Here is Sundance:
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/53634851@N03/23561980548/in/dateposted-public/" title="1957 Shasta"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4501/23561980548_202d58064a.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="1957 Shasta"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/53634851@N03/36704746074/in/dateposted-public/" title="014 o Polish and Wax (15)"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4362/36704746074_d9e3774097.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="014 o Polish and Wax (15)"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
And Butch:
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/53634851@N03/37366605586/in/dateposted-public/" title="001 f Butch coming Home (6)"><img src="https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4489/37366605586_1b8e7a2bcb.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="001 f Butch coming Home (6)"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Neither appears as high as the two Shastas above. Perhaps Shasta added suspension for trailers with refrigerators?
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Post by bigbill on Sept 30, 2017 11:02:34 GMT -8
vikx Measure travel space of axle before bottoming out the compare to other trailers. I don't ever remember having a problem removing the wheels back in the day or hearing about anyone else having that problem. You could have them re-arched ad also add an additional leaf next to the main leaf to increase support. This would help strengthen the old springs. Perhaps the springs are 60 years old and just getting weak from holding up a constant load.
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Post by vikx on Sept 30, 2017 20:50:47 GMT -8
Did some more research today.
Went by my tire shop and Robert the guru was there. He suggested much of what we've discussed and also asked, "where is the axle; top of the springs or bottom?" Of course I couldn't remember, but it is on the top. That means the axle can be moved below the springs and I gain 3" or so... Sundance's axle was on the top as well.
Also, the 205 tires will gain me only 1 1/2" but better than nothing. Trailers in the old days had bias ply tires, which are slightly narrower than a radial. I've purchased bias trailer tires in the past and been happy with them. Altho Butch's wheels are original, many trailers have had newer wheels with the wrong offset. (part of the Loliner blowout issue)
The brakes are off and the hubs apart. Unfortunately, my "helper" didn't help the cap threads at all. I may have to buy replacements.
Removing the brakes helped a lot. Hopefully that will allow a 205 to slip up and in if flat...
Big Bill, what did you mean by "bottoming out?" The current space between the axle and trailer frame is about 5-6".
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mrmarty51
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Post by mrmarty51 on Sept 30, 2017 21:09:32 GMT -8
Yeah, dropping the axle under the spring,then adding in some spacer blocks will greatly help on clearance issues.
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Post by bigbill on Oct 1, 2017 3:44:27 GMT -8
Big Bill, what did you mean by "bottoming out?" The current space between the axle and trailer frame is about 5-6".
I mean the total travel before the axle hits whatever stops it from moving up.
If you move axle under the springs you will most likely need to drill a locating hole for the spring center bolt, this is important to keep axle in line. Drill hole just large enough to accept head of spring center bolt and it must be in the exact location needed to hold axle centered and straight or trailer will tow at an angle and springs could bind causing failure. Moving axle under the springs is most likely the least expensive way to raise trailer.
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shastatom
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Post by shastatom on Oct 1, 2017 9:08:09 GMT -8
My guess is the PO put the axle on the wrong side of the leaf spring to lower the trailer, also maybe changed out the leaf springs. I wouldn't bother with the old springs, you can buy new ones cheap and you don't have to live with metal fatigue. The other items to look for is the rim offsets. I would guess again the offset isn't the same and that can cause you issues as well.
I found on my trailer I almost have to have the trailer wheel well as tall as the tire to get them in.
It sounds like you have most of the issues discovered and have a plan. Good luck. Tom
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Post by vikx on Oct 1, 2017 10:57:05 GMT -8
Thanks.
Would it be wise to take the axle to a machine shop for drilling?
I've been searching for new springs but have not found 30" springs with a double eye. Tire shop said they could add a leaf or two, depending on the exact dimensions. If they are 2" wide, compatible with today's leaves. I will ask for details.
At this point, I really don't want to put the trailer back together just to tow it to the shop to have the spring bracket re-positioned. Drat.
Of course everything is on hold today, shops are closed Sundays.
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mrmarty51
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Post by mrmarty51 on Oct 1, 2017 12:46:07 GMT -8
If there is a centering hole drilled into the axle, some careful measuring and You can probably do that Yourself. A good fabrication shope, or machine shop can do it too, even a good trailer repair shop should be able to get it done.
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Post by bigbill on Oct 1, 2017 13:11:51 GMT -8
Vikx You can drill the axle yourself just measure the location of the existing hole then transfer it to the opposite side of the axle just measure twice drill once.
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mrmarty51
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Post by mrmarty51 on Oct 1, 2017 18:57:28 GMT -8
If the axle is a round tube axle, take a sheet of paper and wrap around the axle, so the edges of the paper are in close to exact alignment where the paper overlaps itself, slide the paper to the edge of the existing hole, then mark the holes edge on the opposite side of the axle, do the same to the other side of the existing hole and that should get the spacing of the holes close to perfect. Then all You need to do is get the exact opposite side of the axle measured out. Not too tough of a job.
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