newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 19, 2024 14:35:13 GMT -8
I have recently reinstalled the poorly designed frameless front side windows in my Airflyte. Although they seem tight against the glass seal now, I am fearful of the water getting in again after all the work I have done. I am getting ready to replace some of the damaged screens and that led me to think of another way to hopefully maintain the pressure of the glass against the glass seal as things shift with movement and or temperature and humidity changes. I'm going to make new wood retainer strips that are 3/8" thick with a cutout for a flexible screen spline. I'll install the wood strips so they are tight against the window and then push a 1/4" screen spline into a 3/16" slot beside the window to add additional even pressure against the glass. The goal is to maintain pressure against the window even if things shift a little. I'll experiment with the slot size on some wood scraps first to make sure the spline fits tightly into the slot. Below is a diagram of what I want to do but I might be over thinking this. Any thoughts or comments would be welcome. I'll post some pictures if I can get this to work.
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Post by Teachndad on Jan 20, 2024 10:42:28 GMT -8
Hi Peter,
I am glad you are trying to attempt this. It's a problem that clearly vexes everyone.
My thoughts come not from experience, but I will give it a go at least to open the discussion. You are clearly making a spring clip like in the Hehr push out windows by creating tension against the glass and pushing against the outer window frame complete with glass seal, and I am sure that's the inspiration for your design.
Screen spline is good on the interior where you designed it to be, but I would think it will eventually dry out and shrink. But that might take a few years and if the trailer is stored under cover or shaded you should get a decent life maybe 4- 7 years?, but I would think it would need to to be replaced with some sort of regimen - Conservatively every 2 to 3 years or more? It could be included in regular maintenance like putty tape removal and re application. Definitely worth a model with a water test.
Rod
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 20, 2024 11:21:54 GMT -8
The Shasta side window design leaves a lot to be desired. The flexible, .028" aluminum side skin was never designed to be a structural framing material.
A much better solution to the original poor Shasta design is to build a new aluminum "T" frame to hold the glass. One place you can purchase the aluminum "T" molding is from So. Cal. Teardrops in various widths and offsets. I like So. Cal. Teardrops mainly because they are close enough to me for "will call" orders to save on shipping and damaged parts. The smaller widths of aluminum can be metal shaped into radius's as small as 4" without annealing (reducing the hardness) the metal. The "T" molding lip gets screwed to the wall framing, the flat head screws are countersunk, and the glass is "glued into the aluminum "T" lip, just like any modern window. I use TremPro 635 sealant to glue the glass into the aluminum. Use a single edge razor blade and some acetone after it dries for a day or two. If you try to clean it up while it's still wet, it's a mess. The TremPro 635 stays flexible after it dries.
The real problem with the Shasta design is that they combined the poor glass mounting method with their very flexible 3/4" thick wood wall framing. You might improve the seal with your new retainer strips, but you still have a flexible wall frame and flexible aluminum skin moving against the ridged glass which I believe will still cause trouble.
You could do the "T" molding using two different methods depending on if you are replacing the side skins or not.
If replacing the side skins, build the new aluminum frames "as one piece" with 4" rounded corners. You need to make both a male buck and a female buck of the exact window frame opening. You likely would need to make bucks for each side because the openings are seldom "exactly the same". You will use these custom-made bucks to bend and shape the new aluminum molding to exactly fit your trailers window openings. You want your new aluminum window frames to fit tightly into the wall framing. The rounded corners will require some framing work in the corners, and obviously require new skin cut into the rounded corner shape. I have built this version of the new "T" frames and used "no welding", just position the butt seam at the bottom of the frame. I know of one Shasta currently being rebuilt with this new window frame design in No. California.
If you plan to still use the original skin with square/rectangle corners, you could do the new frames with straight pieces and mitered corners. The corners would require TIG welding. I have used the Aluminum Solder on my Spartan Air-o-Lite window repairs, but it is marginal in strength for a butt joint with thin material.
When done, make exact metal templates of the glass you need cut to fit your trailer. It's not hard to cut rounded corner glass. You can buy a couple of extra pieces at ACE and practice and still be cheaper than the $10/corner my glass shop charges.
Think "outside the box", there are better ways of doing repairs.
John Palmer
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 20, 2024 14:47:41 GMT -8
Thank you for your comments John and Rod.
John I do appreciate the fact that a framed window with a mounting flange is probably the only real permanent solution. Your comments are certainly food for thought however I'm past that point in my build and I'm trying to make the best of the framing, skin openings and glass that I have. The window openings in the the existing siding have tight round corners that have a radius of about 1.5" so it would be too tight for a T molding bend at this point. My windows are installed with 1/4" plywood strips holding the glass in place and the glass seal is compressed to a point where the windows are probably water tight for the moment. I do know better than to count on any long term performance from this system which is why I was trying to figure out a way to increase and maintain the even pressure from the inside. Not sure if the screen spline will help with that but I can't think of anything else I could push into the space that would remain elastic enough to maintain the pressure over the long term, much in the way that the screws in Herr awning window clips do. If the spline shrinks and dries out as Rod suggests it might, the wood strips would at least still be there below it to hold the glass in place. Hopefully I'm not making things any worse.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 20, 2024 18:54:15 GMT -8
Thank you for your comments John and Rod. John I do appreciate the fact that a framed window with a mounting flange is probably the only real permanent solution. Your comments are certainly food for thought however I'm past that point in my build and I'm trying to make the best of the framing, skin openings and glass that I have. The window openings in the the existing siding have tight round corners that have a radius of about 1.5" so it would be too tight for a T molding bend at this point. My windows are installed with 1/4" plywood strips holding the glass in place and the glass seal is compressed to a point where the windows are probably water tight for the moment. I do know better than to count on any long term performance from this system which is why I was trying to figure out a way to increase and maintain the even pressure from the inside. Not sure if the screen spline will help with that but I can't think of anything else I could push into the space that would remain elastic enough to maintain the pressure over the long term, much in the way that the screws in Herr awning window clips do. If the spline shrinks and dries out as Rod suggests it might, the wood strips would at least still be there below it to hold the glass in place. Hopefully I'm not making things any worse. Screen spline comes in lots of different diameters. Just take your caliper to the hardware store and measure. You can likely find something that will serve your size needs, but all the screen splines I have seen are pretty stiff being plastic they do not have much compression. You might want to try a real auto parts store, not many "real" auto parts stores are left today. You need to find one with a grey hair guy behind the counter and ask him for Vacuum hose. It comes in lots of diameters and is compliant so it could be pressed into your void. Just make certain you don't buy the stuff with threads inside; you want the cheap stuff so it will compress. John Palmer
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 21, 2024 4:58:46 GMT -8
Thanks John. I never thought of using vacuum hose. I started searching online for small hose and found there are also several sizes of tiny rubber fuel line available that are meant for small 2 cycle gas engines. I'm sure I'll find something suitable.
Peter
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 24, 2024 16:48:35 GMT -8
Well this whole thing didn't work out very well. After trying both fuel line hose and screen spline on the street side window, the tightness of the seal against the window in the corners was worse than before. Adding more pressure to the inside just bent the siding out away from the frame and away from the window in the corners. Now I have to remove the wood strips and the window again so I can bend the siding back.
In the process I ruined the inside aluminum trim so I'll also have to make new trim for that window again. I should have just left it the way it was.
Live and learn I guesss.
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Post by vikx on Jan 24, 2024 18:05:27 GMT -8
Ah, the infamous leaky Shasta Dinette Windows! I'm sorry you are going thru this mess.
Here's my method:
I use the Hehr standard glass seal, grey window from VTS. It goes on the metal of the trailer. The window framing is set to receive the skin screws. In my 57 the screws seated into the wood window frame.
1. First step was to prepare everything. I used silicone sealant on the inside of the framing and at the corner. It was smoothed flat so as not to interfere with mounting the glass or snugging the skin. It was below the metal opening. The inside sticks were cut and readied to mount on the inside of the glass. 2. The glass itself was supported by the inside window framing. The skin at this point will be loose. 3. I used clear gasket glue sparingly to mount the glass seal. The seam was at the very top and also sealed with a dab. (gutter seal will work but sparingly) 4.I temporary placed the backer sticks in place giving a good support for the glass. This is the point when you check for spacing and proper screw placement. Remember, the outside screws and skin snug the seal against the glass. I suppose you could put a bead of sealant inside the metal but I didn't. 5. With a helper holding the glass (slight pressure inside), screw the metal tight to the window framing. This should put the seal snuggly against the glass. There are a lot of screws per Shasta. 6. The inside sticks can then be adjusted toward the glass if needed.
The above is tedious and not guaranteed to work. These windows LEAK. I have a few photos if you PM me. Not many but show the process. I think the windows leak more as time goes by...
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 24, 2024 18:46:43 GMT -8
Ah, the infamous leaky Shasta Dinette Windows! I'm sorry you are going thru this mess. Here's my method: I use the Hehr standard glass seal, grey window from VTS. It goes on the metal of the trailer. The window framing is set to receive the skin screws. In my 57 the screws seated into the wood window frame. 1. First step was to prepare everything. I used silicone sealant on the inside of the framing and at the corner. It was smoothed flat so as not to interfere with mounting the glass or snugging the skin. It was below the metal opening. The inside sticks were cut and readied to mount on the inside of the glass. 2. The glass itself was supported by the inside window framing. The skin at this point will be loose. 3. I used clear gasket glue sparingly to mount the glass seal. The seam was at the very top and also sealed with a dab. (gutter seal will work but sparingly) 4.I temporary placed the backer sticks in place giving a good support for the glass. This is the point when you check for spacing and proper screw placement. Remember, the outside screws and skin snug the seal against the glass. I suppose you could put a bead of sealant inside the metal but I didn't. 5. With a helper holding the glass (slight pressure inside), screw the metal tight to the window framing. This should put the seal snuggly against the glass. There are a lot of screws per Shasta. 6. The inside sticks can then be adjusted toward the glass if needed. The above is tedious and not guaranteed to work. These windows LEAK. I have a few photos if you PM me. Not many but show the process. I think the windows leak more as time goes by... Thanks for your reply vikx. I almost understand but have a few questions. In step 1, what is the reason for the silicone? Do you smear it only on the bottom? Is it to waterproof the wood or perhaps to cushion the glass? Am I correct in assuming you let it cure before installing the glass? In step 4, if the skin is loose, how do I know how far in to push the sticks against the glass? should the outside of the glass be flush with the outside of the framing? Also, how do you temporarily attach the sticks so you can adjust them later. I was using a brad nailer that doesn't allow any adjustment. Sorry for all the questions; apparently I'm easy to confuse!
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Post by vikx on Jan 25, 2024 17:38:28 GMT -8
The silicone was extra. I wanted to seal any gaps just in case... not necessary but made me feel better. It was mostly on the bottom framing gaps and cured before the glass was installed. Also smoothed very flat so as not to interfere with the installation.
The glass was mounted just like the orig. window glass. It should be flush with the framing. That way, when you screw the skin tight, the seal will sit against the glass. I had a helper who pushed the skin flush with the framing and supported the glass so I could see what I wanted to do.
The trim sticks were temporarily tacked in place with trim screws. (pre-drill and the heads bury themselves) I didn't have to move them when finished; everything was tight. 1 5/8 trim screws. The sticks actually give the glass a backer to push against.
Honestly, I think these windows would do well being sealed with a thin invisible layer of Gutter Seal but haven't tried it. Questions welcome.
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/53634851@N03/53488004814/in/dateposted-public/" title="door catch (4)"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53488004814_ae2b198e5d_z.jpg" width="640" height="480" alt="door catch (4)"/></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jan 26, 2024 3:59:57 GMT -8
Thanks Vikx. I'm going to try again.
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aslmx
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Post by aslmx on Jul 25, 2024 17:44:58 GMT -8
The Shasta side window design leaves a lot to be desired. The flexible, .028" aluminum side skin was never designed to be a structural framing material. A much better solution to the original poor Shasta design is to build a new aluminum "T" frame to hold the glass. One place you can purchase the aluminum "T" molding is from So. Cal. Teardrops in various widths and offsets. I like So. Cal. Teardrops mainly because they are close enough to me for "will call" orders to save on shipping and damaged parts. The smaller widths of aluminum can be metal shaped into radius's as small as 4" without annealing (reducing the hardness) the metal. The "T" molding lip gets screwed to the wall framing, the flat head screws are countersunk, and the glass is "glued into the aluminum "T" lip, just like any modern window. I use TremPro 635 sealant to glue the glass into the aluminum. Use a single edge razor blade and some acetone after it dries for a day or two. If you try to clean it up while it's still wet, it's a mess. The TremPro 635 stays flexible after it dries. The real problem with the Shasta design is that they combined the poor glass mounting method with their very flexible 3/4" thick wood wall framing. You might improve the seal with your new retainer strips, but you still have a flexible wall frame and flexible aluminum skin moving against the ridged glass which I believe will still cause trouble. You could do the "T" molding using two different methods depending on if you are replacing the side skins or not. If replacing the side skins, build the new aluminum frames "as one piece" with 4" rounded corners. You need to make both a male buck and a female buck of the exact window frame opening. You likely would need to make bucks for each side because the openings are seldom "exactly the same". You will use these custom-made bucks to bend and shape the new aluminum molding to exactly fit your trailers window openings. You want your new aluminum window frames to fit tightly into the wall framing. The rounded corners will require some framing work in the corners, and obviously require new skin cut into the rounded corner shape. I have built this version of the new "T" frames and used "no welding", just position the butt seam at the bottom of the frame. I know of one Shasta currently being rebuilt with this new window frame design in No. California. If you plan to still use the original skin with square/rectangle corners, you could do the new frames with straight pieces and mitered corners. The corners would require TIG welding. I have used the Aluminum Solder on my Spartan Air-o-Lite window repairs, but it is marginal in strength for a butt joint with thin material. When done, make exact metal templates of the glass you need cut to fit your trailer. It's not hard to cut rounded corner glass. You can buy a couple of extra pieces at ACE and practice and still be cheaper than the $10/corner my glass shop charges. Think "outside the box", there are better ways of doing repairs. John Palmer Is there video or pics of this?
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jul 25, 2024 20:10:13 GMT -8
Not to my knowledge.
One more thought, why would a Shasta Owner want to try and fix the poorly designed side window problem without actually fixing the core framing problem? You're never going to fix a flexible wall frame with the 1 by 2 wood turned in the wrong direction.
For anyone that is just meeting this 60+ year old Shasta Design problem, when you rebuild use a 1 1/2" thick poplar wall frame by simply turning the wall studs 90 degrees. This will allow you to use glue and screws to hold the wall frames together to make a much better wall structure. The original trailers were made to be fast to build, and cheap to make, not long lasting, or watertight.
John Palmer
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Jul 26, 2024 3:35:18 GMT -8
One more thought, why would a Shasta Owner want to try and fix the poorly designed side window problem without actually fixing the core framing problem? Just to fix a window leak, I would think that the vast majority of Shasta owners that all have 3/4" walls aren't planning on scrapping their trailers so they can rebuild in a different way. I do expect my windows may start leaking at some point so I will be keeping a close eye on on them once I start traveling with the trailer. If it becomes a problem, I'm thinking I might replace the windows with 3/16" tempered glass and use 3M Auto Glass Urethane Windshield Adhesive between the glass and the aluminum just behind the glass seal. It might not be perfect but I'm pretty sure I can keep the trailer serviceable. Peter
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jul 26, 2024 8:18:03 GMT -8
One more thought, why would a Shasta Owner want to try and fix the poorly designed side window problem without actually fixing the core framing problem? Just to fix a window leak, I would think that the vast majority of Shasta owners that all have 3/4" walls aren't planning on scrapping their trailers so they can rebuild in a different way. I do expect my windows may start leaking at some point so I will be keeping a close eye on on them once I start traveling with the trailer. If it becomes a problem, I'm thinking I might replace the windows with 3/16" tempered glass and use 3M Auto Glass Urethane Windshield Adhesive between the glass and the aluminum just behind the glass seal. It might not be perfect but I'm pretty sure I can keep the trailer serviceable. Peter Peter, we fully agree. The sentence you edited out stated, "that for owners just meeting this 60+ year old Shasta design problem.....". If you already have a trailer that has been rebuilt using the original "poor design", the die has been cast. But for people just starting their rebuilds, they have lots of options to actually make framing design improvements, use better materials, and make the trailers structurally better, yet still retain the original exterior design styling. Materials are available to fabricate frames for the side window glass to be set into. Yes, automotive urethane glass sealer is a good material, but it still needs a structural frame to hold the glass. I hope you have success with your water leak problem. John Palmer
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