pfriesen
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1959 Shasta Airflyte
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 13, 2023 21:39:07 GMT -8
We've had our 1959 Shasta for just one year, after having it completely restored. You can find it in the Talk About Your Trailer board, under "An introduction and a question." After taking it camping just three times -- towed with my 2010 GMC Sierra pickup -- I noticed the floor tiles under the dinette were broken in two places. As if something had pushed up from beneath the floor, causing it to buckle and crack. The first photo might not show it well unless you click to my Flickr page and zoom in. The next two photos show each area individually. I measured the distance between the two areas of damage, crawled underneath, and it matches perfectly the placement of two carriage bolts poking down through the steel frame of the trailer. I sent the photos to our restorer and he was shocked. He told me those carriage bolts were installed below the new plywood sub-floor. It's 5/8-inch plywood. While that area is a flex-point for the frame, he had never in all his years seen that happen before.
I'm in central Canada, and our roads here are bad. Compared to roads in the U.S., real bad. Winters are brutal, and we don't spend the money that you do on roads. Going over frost heaves or potholes can really cause the truck to buck, and I can only imagine what that does to the trailer. So I guess my questions are: Is that likely what caused this? How might I repair it? Or should I just hope it doesn't get worse? Here are the photos:
The cracked wood happened when I dropped the table. Ignore that. Here's the camper:
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nccamper
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1962 Forester- 1956 Shasta
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Post by nccamper on Apr 13, 2023 23:26:11 GMT -8
I've restored several campers including a 59 Shasta and I've seen this before. A few things come to mind... Is the carriage bolt tight? If it's loose it may cause the flooring to bounce a little. Was it very cold when they glued the flooring? Although doubtful, there may be heavy glue at the bolt head that didn't press flat. There is a piece of solid wood (under the birch you scratched with the dinette) and when they screwed it down over the flooring they may have put pressure at the bolt head which caused stress cracks too small to see at the time. These hairline cracks may have spread as the camper bounced down the road. It appears to me that the bold head is raised a little under the flooring. If the bolt is tight, you might just have to leave it. If it's tile flooring you can remove the tile but replacing it may cause other problems. The restorer may use a glue or epoxy to seal the cracks.
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 14, 2023 7:44:54 GMT -8
The bolts were tight, yes. I could get maybe an additional 3/4 turn on one of the nuts from underneath the trailer, but that's it.
It was not cold for the gluing, no. It was done 1,100 miles south of me, in the warmest part of Colorado.
As for the bolt head being raised, I don't know. The restorer told me the bolts are under the plywood sub-floor. I find that bizarre. How could they push up through the plywood?
Yeah, removing a tile or two, then repairing the plywood underneath, feels like major surgery. And to what end, if it just happens again on the next major dip in the road?
Should I try to hammer those points down and then try to seal them?
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Post by vikx on Apr 14, 2023 10:44:44 GMT -8
I'm thinking the bolts are either too long and/or not tight. Sometimes, if the bolt head is not well seated (thwacked hard with a hammer) before tightening, it will spin in place. If that is the case, you should be able to see the bolt turning as you tighten the nut. If the builder used partially threaded carriage bolts, it could prevent the head from seating with fewer threads at the frame. If the bolt is secure, washers underneath will give more threads to pull it down into place. Check ALL bolts.
Also, do you have photos of the build on the trailer? For instance, new sill boards and joists if they were needed? Were the skins lifted for repairs? Weak structural components can allow movement of the body. Rough roads will of course increase the amount of shifting.
My first move would be to remove the flooring square. If the wood is cracked (I'm guessing so), multitool a space around the head. Do both subfloor and plywood. You will see the bolt head and be able to replace the bolt. Rather than a carriage bolt, you could use a flat headed bolt with a large washer to flatten the cracks. Hope this makes sense. One of my trailers came with large braces (2" x 4") in the dinettes on top of flooring to provide more security. The owner was a logging equipment salesman and also had added metal braces to the frame. That Aljo traveled many a mile on logging roads...
I've never had this happen either; even when a new owner raced over a speed bump. Oops.
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 14, 2023 14:39:15 GMT -8
I can't see any bolt heads, Vicx. They are under the tiles and even under the plywood sub-floor, apparently. I have to crawl under the trailer to even get at the nuts, which are very, very tight. They don't appear too long, either. There's maybe an inch coming down through the steel frame beneath the trailer.
The trailer was a complete rebuild. I posted some of these photos in my introduction thread. Here's the rebuilt trailer frame. It may not tell us anything, though.
And here it is with the new flooring installed. As you can imagine, I'm reluctant to cut out a tile and perform surgery on the plywood just to see what's going on under there. It's a real head-scratcher. Larry Hill of Retro Restoration, our restorer, is baffled, as well.
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Apr 14, 2023 15:37:00 GMT -8
In the last picture I see a black layer under the plywood that looks like Soundboard. Soundboard will compress easily if there is a point load and that could cause the floor on top to settle a little. I'm still puzzled by the tight nuts though. Vikx might be on to something with the partially threaded bolts appearing to be tight when the nut gets to the end of the thread. Also if the hole in the frame isn't oversized, (ie a 3/8" hole for a 5/16 bolt") the unthreaded portion could jam in the hole and not pass through. The longer the bolt is, the longer the unthreaded portion would be so if the bolts were once longer and cut shorter, that could be your problem. Do the front bolt ends look like they were cut off or do they have nice factory ends?
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 14, 2023 16:10:34 GMT -8
Nice, factory ends, 62.
That black layer our restorer calls 1/2-inch Celtex: a "tar impregnated insulating panel. It creates a waterproof barrier under the trailer."
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newin62
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Post by newin62 on Apr 14, 2023 16:34:15 GMT -8
I think it would be impossible for the carriage bolts to reflect through both the Celotex and the plywood. The carriage bolts must have been installed through the top plywood at that location. I would try Vikx suggestion to remove the nuts, add a few washers and see if the bolts pull down any more.
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 15, 2023 9:17:02 GMT -8
Good plan. As soon as all our snow is gone (it's getting close) and I can get out the trailer, I will try exactly that, and report back.
Thanks for taking the time to make suggestions.
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Post by vikx on Apr 15, 2023 10:41:38 GMT -8
The work Larry Hill did looks excellent.
I have a new question: Did any of the bolts go thru the plywood? They are what is holding the body onto the frame. I build my floors with carriage bolts in unseen areas, thru all floor layers (closet, K. cabinet, under bed, dinettes). A slight inset allows the flooring to lay flat.
Also, Celotex definitely has give. I'm thinking the bolts may need snugging as time goes along.
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 15, 2023 20:10:12 GMT -8
I don't know if any of the other bolts go through the plywood, Vikx. But here's what Larry said about these two bolts and the photos of the floor damage: "The carriage bolts do not go through the plywood, they are countersunk into the 2x4 framing and the plywood is screwed over the top. How that bolt head managed to break the 5/8" plywood is beyond me."
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Post by Teachndad on Apr 15, 2023 20:52:52 GMT -8
Hi Friends,
This is really a puzzling thread. I like the problem solving.
I don't have much to add to the problem solving, but in looking at the image above that shows the empty frame before the plywood went on, I can see the shackles are really long. (Longer than original?) Does that mean the springs are original and this was an easy way to get the height of the trailer back to the original height?
It's not uncommon for the springs on these old trailers to flatten over time and they lose their resiliency even if the leaf springs were cleaned up and reassembled, I am going to hypothesize that the suspension isn't working to its original capacity or design. Could flattened springs towed over battered roads have contributed to this unfortunate situation?
Rod
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 15, 2023 21:04:18 GMT -8
I'm not sure what you mean by "shackles." I can tell you the springs are original. Also, I received daily updates and photos from our restorer, with all kinds of detail, and he made no mention of the trailer needing to be raised in any way to get it to its original height.
As for the suspension not working to its original capacity, I have absolutely no idea. Interesting theory, though.
Our restorer did mention this is a natural "flex point," the area where the tongue meets the trailer frame. I've been towing with a regular cab, 8-foot box GMC Sierra, and the suspension on trucks is stiff. So with our roads, there can be considerable "bucking" over frost heaves and through dips. I still can't see how that can push bolts up through 5/8-inch plywood.
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Post by Teachndad on Apr 16, 2023 7:22:22 GMT -8
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pfriesen
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Post by pfriesen on Apr 16, 2023 11:30:22 GMT -8
I took no offence to your post, Rod. And I'm open to any and all theories on this. That's why I'm here.
This is my first trailer, so I have no idea if those shackles are normal length or not. Would love to hear from Big Bill or anyone who has an idea or who has come across something like this before.
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