theresa
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from Northern Maine ~ Proud new owner of Lola, a 1960 Shasta Airflyte and Pearl, a 1962 Mobile Scout
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Post by theresa on Oct 11, 2020 15:48:02 GMT -8
So, thanks to the help of so many people, both on here and in the "real world", I got my side metal skins on today. I've watched hours and hours of Larry's videos, but one thing that I haven't seen yet or I've missed is.... where do you start cutting? Or does it matter? I've got them up there, and tacked in place in a few key spots, but where do I start trimming the excess from first? Is there a preference? Or a reason to start in one spot before another? Hopefully I can make lots of headway tomorrow on my day off. Thanks in advance!
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Oct 11, 2020 17:02:44 GMT -8
A photo might help us.
Hard to give advice without knowing what exactly your doing. For example, how did you get them "tacked"?
John
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theresa
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Post by theresa on Oct 11, 2020 17:14:26 GMT -8
They are stapled in a few key sections, as suggested by Larry's videos. I stapled at the bottom of the top section, right at the seam. And front and rear along the edges into the curbing. So right now, it's just basically a huge white rectangle on both sides. (The roof section has not been put on yet, obviously). I can try to get photos tomorrow, but they're not really descriptive, just a lot of white metal.
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nccamper
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1962 Forester- 1956 Shasta
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Post by nccamper on Oct 11, 2020 17:34:57 GMT -8
Assuming both top and bottom are firmly in place, I like to take the excess off to about an inch from the curving (edge) with electric snips then do the rest by hand. The pro restoration people here may be able to take off almost to the edge with the electric sheers but I like to play it safe.
" tacked in place in a few key spots"
Attach the side skin completely before cutting. The temperature ideally needs to be above 80 degrees when putting on the side skin or it may buckle in the heat of summer. The heavier Hemet skin buckles less but they still heat the plant over 80 degrees when installing new skin.
With all that said, I like to start at the bottom and cut up. Just a preference.
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theresa
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Post by theresa on Oct 11, 2020 17:46:38 GMT -8
Assuming both top and bottom are firmly in place, I like to take the excess off to about an inch from the curving (edge) with electric snips then do the rest by hand. The pro restoration people here may be able to take off almost to the edge with the electric sheers but I like to play it safe.
" tacked in place in a few key spots"
Attach the side skin completely before cutting. The temperature ideally needs to be above 80 degrees when putting on the side skin or it may buckle in the heat of summer. The heavier Hemet skin buckles less but they still heat the plant over 80 degrees when installing new skin.
With all that said, I like to start at the bottom and cut up. Just a preference.
Yes, I should have said I will continue to put the rest of the staples in before cutting. Unfortunately in an uninsulated garage in northern Maine, there's no way I'll ever get the heat up to 80 degrees. It was 72 in there today when we installed and that was after having a brief snow shower already this morning. I'll practice using my shears and see which I'm more comfortable with. I have a bunch of different sets of hand shears/snips, I have pneumatic shears, and electric shears.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Oct 11, 2020 19:15:09 GMT -8
You are asking a question that can have many different answers.
There is not ONE CORRECT way to install new skin, all of us have come to our own system based on our successful, and failure installs. My advice is based on my system, which works well for me.
I use a double fold over system which gives you a double seal at the edge. Even if you do not use the double fold over system, there is still many things you can use from my system which will give you a better end result. I will present bullet points of what I consider important items of the overall system.
1) You need to make certain that the center board is good wood, and the top skin will stay securely attached. I do not trust only using 1/4" crown staples. I do use crown staples to get the skin up and stabilized. Then I go back and use counter sunk construction screws every 4" to screw the "S" lock lip to the center board. Nothing will ruin your day faster than to have the top side skin pop loose from the center board after you start using the trailer. I only build trailers with 1 1/2" thick wall frames which give me plenty of thickness to attach the metal skins with screws.
2) You need to mark all of the locations that you have wires, hoses, and gas lines near the edges so you do not hit with a screw or staple.
3) I mark all of my wall studs both "Top and Bottom". I do this by running a 2" long screw into the top, and into the bottom wood. I mark every stud, but only use the positions that look good after I have the new skin installed. IMO, it's very important to install the heat expansion screws into the skins to control the expansion and not end up with something that looks like the skins are falling off. The reason for the breaks in the metal are to control the expansion, but the #8 by 3/4" SS Pan Head screws in the "open spaces" are also important.
4) It's not difficult to cut .030" aluminum. You do not need anything special. In fact, the power tools, routers, pneumatic shears, power snips just make it faster to make a mistake, IMO. You can use normal Aircraft snips. Wiss is a quality brand, but make sure you have one with a red handle, and one with a green handle. They are made to cut in different directions and will make your life much easier. They are about $20 each. Do not purchase the yellow handle snips which are made to cut straight, they are not needed.
5) I'm a chicken, the cost of the metal, and the cost of the freight is just too much to make a mistake. I rough cut to about 3-4" in preparation from my final size. I have made a special tool out of a piece of 1/2" plywood. It's just a large U shaped board. It allows me to use a sharpie marker and mark to outside, while the wood U is guided off of the roof/front/back. It's kinda hard to explain, but it makes a hard job very easy. The better more consistent the cut you make, the easier your fold over will be. It does not matter if you choose the double wrap or the single wrap fold over system, the better the cut, the more consistent the seam will end up. You want to end up with enough metal to fold over that will be completely covered by your drip rail. I like to have the drip rails about 1/8" to 3/16" lower than the edge. So......I usually do my final edge cut approximately 1", then fold over a short section and check to make sure I'm in the ballpark before I go ahead and make the final cuts.
6) I go inside the the trailer and use a 1/8" by 12" drill bit to drill holes through the skins. I back drill using the storage door frame, the window frames, and the entry door frame to make sure I have the correct locations. I do not measure. I do not cut out the metal, I just drill a small 1/8" hole as a marker for where the corners are located. Remember the 2" screws we put in the top and bottom. I only attach the wall skins in the areas between these screws. I temporarily leave the screws installed until I do the lower skins. I take some blue masking tape and lay out a grid pattern after I have the door/window openings marked. The skins will be secured by the entire edge, the lip of the door frames, and the lip of the windows. You need to figure out where they are not going to be securely attached and areas that could "pucker" in the heat. Drop string from the top screw to the corresponding bottom wall stud screw. I like to make the grid pattern with all of the screw heads aligned front to back, and the string shows me where the wall stud is (it's impossible to know after the skin is installed). At all of the lip covered areas (window and door frames), I use a 1/4" crown staple at each break line (it reduces the dented in look, not in the middle of a break), after I cut out to door opening. I usually do not cut the windows, or the storage door openings until after I have laid out and painted all of the graphics. It saves the time and expense of taping.
Lesson is over, Lakers Win #17!
If you have specific questions, just ask.
John
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Oct 11, 2020 19:43:51 GMT -8
Regarding ambient temperature. Just install the skin on the side that is in the sun, mid day, warm as possible. Finish that side both top and bottom, then turn the trailer around 180 degrees and do the other side. The sun will warm it right up. Here in Southern California, it gets almost too hot to touch, just from the sun on a summer day.
The expansion and contraction measured "per foot of .030" material" that we are talking about is very minimal. If you put it in the sun, let it normalize to the temperature, AND install the heat expansion screws every 18" or so, you will be fine. I do a couple of skins each year this way, and never had a problem.
If the expansion/contraction changed as much as we are lead to believe, if the skin was installed on a hot summer day (read in Hemet, CA,), it would crush the trailer's wood framing when the trailer was in temperatures at freezing. We all know that does not happen.
If you move the trailer, make sure you take the time to level it in both directions before you continue with the skinning. The trailer needs to be square.
John
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Post by vikx on Oct 11, 2020 21:19:12 GMT -8
Yes, skin must be firmly attached all the way and also stapled around each opening. I drill a small hole at each corner of the opening. (like a window) Draw a line from hole to hole so you will know where the opening is.
The tool of choice is my Multimaster with a sharp 1/2 round blade. Start on the line and make a groove from hole to hole. Go slow and steady. Re-groove. By the third pass, you should go thru the metal. If you are using .030 metal, maybe a couple more passes.
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Post by wisconsinjoe on Oct 12, 2020 7:54:34 GMT -8
Again, thanks to John for great detail and clear writing. Vikx too.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Oct 12, 2020 10:09:18 GMT -8
CONTINUED
7) All kinds of metal has what we call "spring back" when it's bent. When bending metal in a brake, you compensate for this by just "over bending" it by a couple of degrees. But you cannot do this when bending the wall skins over the edges. (Note, I double seam) It's the same problem when bending the roof skin over the edges. What you do is using two hands, one holds the skin tight with a 12" long 2 by 4, while the other hand using a leather, rubber, or plastic mallet hammers over the metal skin. The 2 by 4 block keeps the metal spring back down to a minimum. I use several different hammers depending on what I'm doing. I do not make the entire bend all at one time. I might make it to 45 degrees with a leather mallet, then switch over to a smaller plastic hammer for better control, you have to be very careful to not dent the wall skins when bending the roof edge seam. I start in the middle of the roof and tack one side down. Then I switch over to the opposite side to the roof and tack it down. I skip about a foot, and repeat alternating front to back, and side to side. If you try to do a entire side completely, then the other side you will have trouble. Basically, you will have metal stretch as you work. You need to squish it all down as you go. If you wait to make the corrections until you have the entire roof on it will have large puckers in the four corners.
8) STRAPING You want to find a friend that works for your local electric company. They use a product called Mule Tape. It's a 1" wide nylon strap, that they can use "only one time" then dispose it. It's used for pulling electric lines on power poles. You need about four 25' pieces. Clamp a heavy board under the tongue, and secure another under the rear of the trailer. I install bicycle rack receivers into my frames, so I just stick a drawbar into my receiver to secure the rear board. These boards will be your tie down points for the mule tape straps you run over the roof. It's lots easier to use a ratchet strap with the mule tape so you can make minute adjustments in tension. You want to use 2 by 4's laid over the top to spread the strap load evenly over the roof metal skin. Basically you are trying to compress the irregular roof shapes and get the roof skin to lay down in the four corners before you start stapling to down. It's easier to make small corrections before it's too late.
9) ROOF AND WALL CURVE SHAPE, When you have a roof profile that has a large compound crown in it you are going to have a problem when you roof skin it. The metal easily bends in a single plane, but will not bend into a compound plane. You need to pull "the high spots" down, in order to make "the low spots" not pucker up in the four corners. That is why you used the mule tape and the tension straps in the above step. It's critical when rebuilding the curve of the wall edge frames that they be kept exactly the same radius. Any irregularities in the curves will cause problems in the roof skin step.
I'm sorry if some of this is in steps "out of order", but it's how this "old mind" works.
John
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theresa
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Post by theresa on Oct 12, 2020 13:07:00 GMT -8
Thanks John and Vikx for all the very helpful information!
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