John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Dec 28, 2013 22:42:53 GMT -8
Just curious if any of you track the number of hours and cost of materials you invest into your restorations?
I have been working with a well known certified appraiser for almost the past year and have had three of my customer's restorations recently appraised. All went well, and it was an interesting process. One thing that was very important was the extensive documentation of the cost of materials, and of the number of hours spent during the restoration, backed up by several hundred digital photos of each trailer showing the original "before", the repair work in progress "the during", and final restoration photos.
The purpose for the certified appraisal's is to be able to get the trailer's insured on Agreed Value policies, like is commonly done on high end collector cars, and Hot Rods..
The one stumbling block seems to be finding "valid comp's", or comparable priced trailer's that have recently sold. As you would expect, it's difficult comparing a trailer found on a eBay ad, or Craig's List (with all the hidden rot and damage) to a brand new fully rebuilt vintage trailer.
This is not an issue for a trailer under $1000 in value. But some of the vintage trailer restorations are getting into the $20K to $40K range and you need to make sure you have the correct type of policy before any loss occurs.
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swirlygirls
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Post by swirlygirls on Dec 29, 2013 5:05:23 GMT -8
I have a journal that looks vintage of course and will stay in the trailer. In that journal I've listed everything I've spent and every bit of work. Unfortunately I didn't keep all the receipts originally but I do have that list. I also have many, many photos. Even if it wouldn't help with insurance, I knew I'd want to remember how much I actually did. Especially when I reached those points where I was very sick of it (like right now). It'll also help for resale some day if I ever part with her.
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Post by universalexports on Dec 29, 2013 7:38:59 GMT -8
I have most of my receipts for parts/supplies and take a butt load of pictures, I plan on getting it insured when I get done and hope this will help me get it insured for a decent amount $6,000+.
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txoil
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1960 Shasta Deluxe 19
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Post by txoil on Dec 29, 2013 9:17:00 GMT -8
I kept a record of my time/costs and so far the tally is 487 hours work, about $7000 in costs including original cost and incidentals such as generator, dishes, etc. I never intended to spend this much but now it's done, I could not be happier with the outcome.
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jodybitzz
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1968 Shasta 1500
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Post by jodybitzz on Dec 29, 2013 9:29:04 GMT -8
I have just started my restoration and have not been keeping track of the hours but plan on making a spread sheet for all the expenses. I can tell you just this weekend alone I have dropped over $500 and that was just for the birch paneling! This is scary to think about as the trailer is still just a frame and hopefully it will have a floor by the end of the day!
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Dec 29, 2013 10:11:03 GMT -8
The importance of detailed documentation goes well beyond just obtaining the correct kind of insurance. It's easy to spend over $10K on a "small canned ham" trailer restoration in materials, NOT including any labor, or sublet repair services.
You might have liability insurance on your trailer while it is connected to your (insured) truck, but not comprehensive on the trailer. Here's the way it will go down if someone "with insurance" runs into your newly restored trailer when your at a stop light, while your towing to your next rally. TRAILER OWNER......It's a freshly restored 1958 Shasta. INSURANCE ADJUSTER...... Sure, let me look it up in my Blue Book. The book says it was worth $800.00, in 1958, fifty years ago, and today it has depreciated to $50.00, that's all we are going to pay you. TRAILER OWNER.....But I just spent three years restoring it and spent "I think", over $10,000 in parts. INSURANCE ADJUSTER.....jeee wizz, very sorry, but fifty bucks is all we are going to pay you.
We will discuss the correct type of insurance policy you need in another post.
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61 Shasta
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Doing what I want as soon as she wants me to
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Post by 61 Shasta on Dec 29, 2013 10:56:53 GMT -8
Thanks John. I hadn't even thought about insurance or the type of specialty insurance I will need for mine. This is certainly a heads up and I will compile my costs and pictures to see what I come up with. I have the vast majority of the information, it just remains to put it together. Hours may be another thing though. Pictures are no problem as is the receipts but the labor will be difficult.
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Post by bigbill on Dec 29, 2013 13:18:47 GMT -8
The insurance companies will pay no than you have it insured for. That is why you need to have it insured at an agreed value that is high enough to make you happy if some one runs into it. If you doubt this start talking to collector car people that have been involved in an accident. If you don't have it insured for a fixed value they will take the cost new and after it is ten years old the value will be near zero and there is nothing you can do about it. Ask your lawyer if you don't think this is true. I said true not fair.
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Post by bigbill on Dec 29, 2013 13:22:08 GMT -8
Another thing unless you are a professional restoration person they don't count your labor. That is another reason for a professional appraisal.
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Dec 29, 2013 17:19:19 GMT -8
Another thing unless you are a professional restoration person they don't count your labor. That is another reason for a professional appraisal. Bill, I have never been challenged by an insurance company over "who did the labor". I've worked with insurance companies for over fifty years, and this topic has never come up even one time to my knowledge. My street roadster is insured for $60K on a Agreed Value collector car policy for the past twelve years. I'm surely "not a professional hot rod builder", but I built this one from the frame up.
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
Posts: 1,629
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Post by John Palmer on Dec 29, 2013 17:56:35 GMT -8
The insurance companies will pay no than you have it insured for. That is why you need to have it insured at an agreed value that is high enough to make you happy if some one runs into it. If you doubt this start talking to collector car people that have been involved in an accident. If you don't have it insured for a fixed value they will take the cost new and after it is ten years old the value will be near zero and there is nothing you can do about it. Ask your lawyer if you don't think this is true. I said true not fair. Bill, I wanted to try and keep this post about "how does someone put a value their vintage trailer", which is a very broad topic.
But, lets talk insurance, the types of insurance policies, and the mass amount of wrong information.
First, you will get lots of incorrect information from insurance companies, insurance agents, and insurance adjusters, about the two different kinds of insurance policies. Many of them incorrectly use the two names interchangeable, then will argue about it, LOL! The two kinds of policies are totally different, and only one of them will give you the coverage you expect on a vintage vehicle.
STATED VALUE POLICY is the most common type of insurance you will find on a vehicle. I'd bet 99% of the cars on the road today have this type of policy (if they have insurance at all, LOL). Basically, the insured, and the insurance company STATE a VALUE (usually by a wholesale Blue Book) and then they assume that as the vehicle wears out over several years it depreciates to zero. Just because you purchase a stated value policy for say $20K, it DOES NOT automatically mean the insurance company will pay off on a total loss, UP TO $20K. In some cases they will be happy to take your premium payment, but if you have a claim they will not pay up to the limits of the policy, claiming that the vehicle was "over insured", and want to make their settlement for pennies on the dollar of the Stated Value. This is a BIG concern for someone insuring something obscure like a vintage travel trailer.
AGREED VALUE POLICY is the only type of policy you would want to purchase for a vintage vehicle. Basically you argue the value question "up front" with the insurance company, then they establish a premium. Usually on a collector car they will just require some photos and a photo of the secure garage it will be stored. The cost for Agreed Value policies is very low because they are only written on collector type vehicles, not daily driver type vehicles that have a larger loss exposure. The common big name agreed value collector car companies have shown "no interest" in writing agreed value policies on vintage travel trailers. You would most likely need to have a certified appraiser do an appraisal to obtain an Agreed Value policy on a vintage travel trailer. Just to clarify, with an AGREED VALUE policy, they will not depreciate the vehicle value when you have a claim, and will pay "up to" the policy limits.
The "most important" idea anyone should come away with from this discussion is to understand the difference between the two terms used, STATED VALUE, and AGREED VALUE. Do not let the insurance companies try to tell you they are the same.
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Post by bigbill on Dec 29, 2013 19:03:53 GMT -8
Yes john I currently own to street rods both are insured on an agreed value also two trailers. What I am talking about is if you don't have a professional appraisal and only have a stack of papers showing what you paid for the parts and you wish to be paid for your labor most adjustors will tell you it is your hobby and refuse to pay labor I have even appeared in court over this very thing. If you have an agreed value policy with your insurance then the value is there, if the other insurance company doesn't wish to pay off then your own will pay less your deductible. I had a friend with a 34 Packard that had won national awards that got hit by a DUI driver and they had never increased the insurance above what they had before it was restored and took a hit for around 100K. I have been building cars and trailers since the late 50s and some of the things I have seen happen to people could make you cry. I was not trying to take over your post just trying to add to it. Many people think that a stack of receipts will cover them and will be proof that labor was involved and everything will be all right, that is just a dream in most cases. Also your statement above about a Certified Appraiser is very important, an absolute must, but before paying for his services make sure he will appear in court if the need arises to justify his appraisal. Most any reputable appraiser will do this.
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Post by bigbill on Dec 29, 2013 19:17:44 GMT -8
Another quick note to remember is if you own a vehicle or trailer for a number of years you in many cases improve or add to it causing the value to change, so a new appraisal and updated insurance may be in order, even inflation enters into this picture.
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Post by vikx on Dec 29, 2013 22:06:55 GMT -8
I should keep better track... have the receipts but sometimes there's 3 in the works at once. Sometimes, I don't want to know...
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Post by schweetcruisers on Dec 30, 2013 21:24:34 GMT -8
Kept track of parts but not labor, after all who could put a price on a labor of love...lol, even I couldn't get through that with a straight face!
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