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Post by danrhodes on Dec 3, 2015 6:45:54 GMT -8
I've found a lot of info scattered about, but could not find a central thread with all the birch questions I had. Sorry for the barrage, but birch ain't cheap, even imported, so I want to get this right.
1. Tips for removing panels without destroying the framing? Mine are glued with some type of amber glue that's still holding well.
2. What glue do you use to install the birch? I read a lot of people use Gorilla Glue, but is that the classic amber glue for "everything", or the Gorilla Glue white wood glue? Any reason not to just use Titebond II or standard water resistant wood glue?
3. What staples do you use? I have an 18ga crown stapler, but have never used it before. I read 1/4", but how long?
4. How close to edge can you safely staple, yet not see under gimp?
5. Do you add two rows of staples at birch joints one on each panel, or just span the joint with one staple?
6. My existing panels seem to be 3' wide...I assume no issues replacing with 4' wide as long as I add framing where the joints hit? Biggest annoyance is the wall is 12'3" long, so likely to waste some material here
Please feel free to add any other questions or comments. Thanks in advance
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 19:20:45 GMT -8
Wow... OK...
Where are we attaching these panels? Is this the wall? The Ceiling? I've only seen glued panels on the ceiling, front and rear so far. But someone could have glued the walls too... I have some photos of the one I did with glue. You pre-manufacture the panel with framing glued to it then install. I used Locktight Panel Adhiesive... It doesn't bleed through.
1/4 inch staples will work fine as long as you don't shoot them through the paneling. Get he air pressure set right by trying some test pieces with scrap first. Us half inch because that's all you need. This is just to attach the paneling to the framing for the time being until you nail up the seam covers.
when stapling gimp in I use a hand stapler with T-50s I think? or T-30s. I have to look because I have both. But they are quarter inch hand staples. Not air. Be careful around edges. Not too close. Too close and the grain will take one spike of the staple and run it out the side and right into your finger. Ask me how I know this....
Staple each piece at the seam seperately. do not span staples. It's too close to the edge and won't hold. But stagger your staples. Don't put them right next to each other. That creates weakness in the framing and may not hold.
I have added framing in order to use larger panels. No problem there. If anything it adds more framing to the top usually. That's a good thing. With 4 foot panels I use 16 inch on center framing. Glue it on, set something on top of it overnight, I even shellacked them first and then install the panel. Nothing is pre-installed on the seams those you install after. This makes installing the panels much easier because they are not so flimsy. better chance of the walls lining up too. Do one panel at a time. Remove one, replace it and then move on to the next.
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Post by danrhodes on Dec 3, 2015 19:31:13 GMT -8
Wow... OK... Where are we attaching these panels? Is this the wall? The Ceiling? I've only seen glued panels on the ceiling, front and rear so far. But someone could have glued the walls too... I have some photos of the one I did with glue. You pre-manufacture the panel with framing glued to it then install. I used Locktight Panel Adhiesive... It doesn't bleed through. 1/4 inch staples will work fine as long as you don't shoot them through the paneling. Get he air pressure set right by trying some test pieces with scrap first. Us half inch because that's all you need. This is just to attach the paneling to the framing for the time being until you nail up the seam covers. when stapling gimp in I use a hand stapler with T-50s I think? or T-30s. I have to look because I have both. But they are quarter inch hand staples. Not air. Be careful around edges. Not too close. Too close and the grain will take one spike of the staple and run it out the side and right into your finger. Ask me how I know this.... Staple each piece at the seam seperately. do not span staples. It's too close to the edge and won't hold. But stagger your staples. Don't put them right next to each other. That creates weakness in the framing and may not hold. I have added framing in order to use larger panels. No problem there. If anything it adds more framing to the top usually. That's a good thing. With 4 foot panels I use 16 inch on center framing. Glue it on, set something on top of it overnight, I even shellacked them first and then install the panel. Nothing is pre-installed on the seams those you install after. This makes installing the panels much easier because they are not so flimsy. better chance of the walls lining up too. Do one panel at a time. Remove one, replace it and then move on to the next. Thanks mobiltec. I am doing the walls flat on sawhorses (yes, they are well glued). I am still curious about how to staple the perimeter of the walls so they don't show without damaging the edge of the wood... Just glue? I'm a bit of an ocd engineering type, so I may go over board with the questions, but you are a great help as always.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 19:45:35 GMT -8
You don't... You attach the field with twisty nails but you don't do anything but clamp the paneling around the outside while the glue dries. You only use staples on the edges because those will get covered up. In the field you use twisties and only one per foot if gluing. At the most.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 19:53:35 GMT -8
You're going to need a lot of clamps LOL... Home Depot and Lowes sells them but HF has the best deal. Buck each I think.
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Post by danrhodes on Dec 3, 2015 19:55:50 GMT -8
You're going to need a lot of clamps LOL... Home Depot and Lowes sells them but HF has the best deal. Buck each I think. I probably have enough to do one panel at a time, but forgot to load up at harbor freight last week. I'll try the Depot Saturday for some cheap spring clamps.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 20:29:41 GMT -8
Oh and if the old paneling is leaving patches of paneling and glue on the framing that is going to stick up, I use a good belt sander to flatten all that down. Quickest and cleanest way. If the framing is stapled together try not to sand those down. Anything I can't get to with the belt sander I use a one inch chisel.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 20:31:26 GMT -8
You're going to be saying to yourself, "It would have been faster to just build new walls".... And you may be right.
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Post by nccamper on Dec 3, 2015 20:47:35 GMT -8
I recently tried Mobiltec's Shellac-before-installation method and was very happy. Shellac down the arm really stinks.
On my latest project I tried something different for applying shellac...a trim paint pad. It's much faster than a brush with a smoother application.
I used a T50 stapler with a 1/2 inch staple on the gimp. The 1/4 seemed to pop out too easily. On corners I had to trim out a triangle behind the round edge of the gimp to wrap around the corner without buckling. It will make sense when you do it.
At first the gimp will seem loose but once the framing and curving is in it's tight.
I had some pieces with knots which I hid under cabinets. Picking the best pieces for the important spots took me two days.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 3, 2015 20:51:47 GMT -8
I recently tried Mobiltec's Shellac-before-installation method and was very happy. Shellac down the arm really stinks. On my latest project I tried something different for applying shellac...a trim paint pad. It's much faster than a brush with a smoother application. I used a T50 stapler with a 1/2 inch staple on the gimp. The 1/4 seemed to pop out too easily. On corners I had to trim out a triangle behind the round edge of the gimp to wrap around the corner without buckling. It will make sense when you do it. At first the gimp will seem loose but once the framing and curving is in it's tight. I had some pieces with knots which I hid under cabinets. Picking the best pieces for the important spots took me two days. Im just now creating a video on using the French Polish method on a door. I pre-shellacked the whole 54 Aljoa with a brush and it was great. But I've since fell in love with using a rag instead. Pre-shellac everything. By the way using a rag and John Palmer's method instead of a brush gives you a much smoother and shinier finish. No more brushes for me.
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Post by danrhodes on Dec 3, 2015 21:30:53 GMT -8
You're going to be saying to yourself, "It would have been faster to just build new walls".... And you may be right. I'm halfway there already with the boards I have replaced or reattached. I think I'll be fine, but am a bit worried my workspace isn't flat enough... Wish me luck
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Post by nccamper on Dec 4, 2015 6:10:45 GMT -8
I wondered about the rag system for shellac. I'll definitely take a look at the new video. My pad system is probably a lazy man's rag alternative.
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mobiltec
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Post by mobiltec on Dec 4, 2015 7:59:47 GMT -8
I wondered about the rag system for shellac. I'll definitely take a look at the new video. My pad system is probably a lazy man's rag alternative. The nice thing about the rag is that when you are done with a coat you just throw the rag back into the can until you need it again. Using laytex surgical gloves there is NO cleanup. No expensive brushes... And as far as attaching the edges of the paneling is concerned I forgot to mention that twisty nails are usually used around the edges about one inch from the Gimp.. Here is a video showing that procedure. This way you need no clamps and this is how it was done at the factory in most cases.
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Post by mountainsounds on Dec 4, 2015 13:50:06 GMT -8
For shellac application we tried brushes, rags and the HVLP. We prefer the HVLP both in terms of finish quality, ease of application and speed. If you are laying everything out and doing it at once (of course we didn't do this) it would be even better. Keep in mind that you need to keep it clean for the best finish quality (no bubbles etc).
Next time we would finish the paneling prior to wall/ceiling install. Even with the HVPL finishing the ceiling and working in an enclosed space with shellac is not the best (even with a respirator).
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Post by danrhodes on Dec 4, 2015 14:10:38 GMT -8
For shellac application we tried brushes, rags and the HVLP. We prefer the HVLP both in terms of finish quality, ease of application and speed. If you are laying everything out and doing it at once (of course we didn't do this) it would be even better. Keep in mind that you need to keep it clean for the best finish quality (no bubbles etc). Next time we would finish the paneling prior to wall/ceiling install. Even with the HVPL finishing the ceiling and working in an enclosed space with shellac is not the best (even with a respirator). Thanks... Got the hvlp last week at harbor freight. What I didn't get today was the birch which went from $22 to $27 in a few weeks. Another place in town will sell 13 sheets for $24, so its worth a short drive tomorrow
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