chametzoo
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 20, 2015 17:34:43 GMT -8
Hi All….
I've participated in a couple of threads regarding "agreed value" insurance for vintage travel trailers. I've decided to change from my Statefarm insurance to one that specializes in agreed value coverage. On this forum I heard about an agent called American Adventure. I called them today and was presented a quote through Progressive Insurance. What was offered was extensive coverage with total loss replacement for an agreed value…. plus many other extras like personal belonging replacement, towing and many other expenses related to accidents. The annual premium was very reasonable in my estimation. I've calculated the value and improvements I've made to the trailer over the last few months and submitted that as my value for the quote. But at this point, in order to make the insurance airtight, the agent suggested that I get a professional appraisal, incorporating my documentation of improvements made to date.
So my question is, where would I begin to find a professional appraiser for this purpose, that can validate the current value of the trailer for insurance purposes? Is there perhaps another way to establish value?
Thanks in advance!
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 20, 2015 18:33:36 GMT -8
I have hammered the topic of Agreed Value policies for a long time on several vintage trailer forums.
IMO, without a "certified professional appraisal" you still will have an argument with the insurance adjuster at the time of a total loss, even with your Agreed Value policy.
The bad news is.........I do not know of a certified appraiser, that is willing to write, and is knowledgeable about vintage trailers. One thing that holds us back is the top dollar trailers change hands "for cash", and have very little public documentation. The car hobby has documented sales prices like Barrett-Jackson Auction. Haggerty Insurance has their value book for collectable cars. I walked into AAA and told them I wanted an Agreed Value policy on my 1957 Ford two door wagon for $28K, they said no problem because that $$ number "was in the middle of their book value" range. But they will not write Agreed Value on my vintage trailer, only a Stated Value policy.
You need someone that is "a professional in the field of appraisals", not just a "trailer guy".
This is arguably THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN OUR HOBBY. Sadly, I see no improvement in the past five years.
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chametzoo
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 21, 2015 8:01:30 GMT -8
I have hammered the topic of Agreed Value policies for a long time on several vintage trailer forums. IMO, without a "certified professional appraisal" you still will have an argument with the insurance adjuster at the time of a total loss, even with your Agreed Value policy. You need someone that is "a professional in the field of appraisals", not just a "trailer guy". This is arguably THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN OUR HOBBY. Sadly, I see no improvement in the past five years. John, Yes… I've read what you've written on the subject and it motivated me to make this change to agreed value. But even the agent at American Adventure would not acknowledge the importance of appraisal until I challenged the point several times… then even he admitted that a claim could be ambiguous without one. So I've located a number of certified appraisers in my neighboring state of Colorado, who are 'automotive specialists' and we'll see if they can help me. Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks again! |
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 21, 2015 8:34:02 GMT -8
I have hammered the topic of Agreed Value policies for a long time on several vintage trailer forums. IMO, without a "certified professional appraisal" you still will have an argument with the insurance adjuster at the time of a total loss, even with your Agreed Value policy. You need someone that is "a professional in the field of appraisals", not just a "trailer guy". This is arguably THE MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC IN OUR HOBBY. Sadly, I see no improvement in the past five years. John, Yes… I've read what you've written on the subject and it motivated me to make this change to agreed value. But even the agent at American Adventure would not acknowledge the importance of appraisal until I challenged the point several times… then even he admitted that a claim could be ambiguous without one. So I've located a number of certified appraisers in my neighboring state of Colorado, who are 'automotive specialists' and we'll see if they can help me. Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks again!
Sorry, but this is going to be a tough one!
I have had three fully rebuilt vintage trailers appraised so far by one of the most respected "top professional appraisers" in the country. He did a fantastic job of documenting the restoration, and presenting the trailer in a seventeen page document book. The problem is finding comparable sales of like trailers. As many of us already know, the terminology used in our hobby is not consistent. When you see the word restored used in a Craig's List or eBay ad, it does not always mean the trailer was structurally rebuilt, sometimes it means it got a Lipstick restoration. Likewise, these sources cannot be used for valid "sold price" comparisons, because the quality levels are all different. Loan companies, Banks, and Realtor's use tax records to determine the cost per square foot for land and buildings for actual sales to determine appraised values. We do not have a quality "blue, or black (vintage) book" information source in this hobby for values.
None of this becomes important when you talking about a cheap $500 trailer drug out of a field. It becomes "AN ISSUE" when we start seeing $30K, $40K, and $50K restorations. Even small vintage trailers "fully professional restored" are approaching the $20K mark today.
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chametzoo
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 21, 2015 11:22:45 GMT -8
John, Yes… I've read what you've written on the subject and it motivated me to make this change to agreed value. But even the agent at American Adventure would not acknowledge the importance of appraisal until I challenged the point several times… then even he admitted that a claim could be ambiguous without one. So I've located a number of certified appraisers in my neighboring state of Colorado, who are 'automotive specialists' and we'll see if they can help me. Any other thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks again!
Sorry, but this is going to be a tough one!…...
Even small vintage trailers "fully professional restored" are approaching the $20K mark today. Thanks again John. I hear what you're saying… the "SOLD" price is the missing piece of the equation. I've spoken to one ASA certified appraiser in the Denver area who has appraised vintage trailers and he acknowledged exactly what you are saying, that it is virtually impossible to come up with records of actual completed transaction prices. In his experience, he says that he begins with a base value based on modified asking prices (which are available) and then build on top of that the value of documented improvements, restorations, repairs, etc. As you wisely point out, the terms I just used need to be specifically defined within the appraisal. He says that so far, his appraisals have passed muster with his client's insurance claims. Perhaps I need to ask him for testimonials to that affect. I also have calls to 2 other ASA appraisers. Also… there are professional restorers out there who have restored vintage trailers on spec, and would indeed have records and documentation of work done as well as selling price. I would think that would be a valid resource for creating 'comparable' evaluations of other restored trailers by appraisers. BTW, John… have you ever had to put one of those three appraisals to the test with an insurance claim? |
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 21, 2015 13:13:56 GMT -8
Sorry, but this is going to be a tough one!…...
Even small vintage trailers "fully professional restored" are approaching the $20K mark today. Thanks again John. I hear what you're saying… the "SOLD" price is the missing piece of the equation. I've spoken to one ASA certified appraiser in the Denver area who has appraised vintage trailers and he acknowledged exactly what you are saying, that it is virtually impossible to come up with records of actual completed transaction prices. In his experience, he says that he begins with a base value based on modified asking prices (which are available) and then build on top of that the value of documented improvements, restorations, repairs, etc. As you wisely point out, the terms I just used need to be specifically defined within the appraisal. He says that so far, his appraisals have passed muster with his client's insurance claims. Perhaps I need to ask him for testimonials to that affect. I also have calls to 2 other ASA appraisers. Also… there are professional restorers out there who have restored vintage trailers on spec, and would indeed have records and documentation of work done as well as selling price. I would think that would be a valid resource for creating 'comparable' evaluations of other restored trailers by appraisers. BTW, John… have you ever had to put one of those three appraisals to the test with an insurance claim?
My short answer would be NO, thankfully not, as none has yet been damaged. But I did speak with some regional reps. for the AAA Agreed Value program, and they personally knew the appraiser that I used, and specifically said they would accept his documentation in any claim without any challenges because they knew the lengths he went to arrive at a fair valuation on a specialty, and "usually not replaceable" vehicle. How ever, they were not allowed to write Agreed Value, only Stated Value on a travel trailer. But they can write Agreed Value on your enclosed Hot Rod, Race Car trailer, go figure.
This entire topic originally came up a couple of years ago because someone had a vintage trailer, had it "insured for $20K" by a major insurance company, then had a road towing accident where it sustained some major body, and frame damage. The damage estimate was close to $10K, and the insurance company refused, or tried to refuse the owner's claim based on the trailer not having an actual value of $10K, much less than the $20K amount, that they used to establish their insurance payment premium. This vintage trailer person learned the hard way what is the difference between the two insurance company terms called Agreed Value, and Stated Value. Basically with Agreed Value you have the "valuation argument up front", before any claim is made. How the heck could you have a good argument with an insurance company after the trailer was stolen, burned to the ground, or your Oak Tree fell on it! With Stated Value, the insurance company will take the purchase price of your 1955 trailer (less than $1000) and depreciate it at about 10% per year, and have the balls to tell you they can't pay anything on your claim, AFTER taking you yearly premiums for years. Most (hopefully just many) insurance agents sadly DO NOT UNDERSTAND the basic difference between these two different types of policies and commonly misrepresent the terms.
In the above case, we can all thank our own Vikx for putting in countless hours searching for comparable sales to document that the trailer in question "was not over insured" and the claim was finely paid, after several months of debate.
If I were an insurance company, I'm not sure I would insure vintage trailers either! There's just too many variables and no value documentation.
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chametzoo
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 21, 2015 13:33:20 GMT -8
Thanks again John. I hear what you're saying… the "SOLD" price is the missing piece of the equation. I've spoken to one ASA certified appraiser in the Denver area who has appraised vintage trailers and he acknowledged exactly what you are saying, that it is virtually impossible to come up with records of actual completed transaction prices. In his experience, he says that he begins with a base value based on modified asking prices (which are available) and then build on top of that the value of documented improvements, restorations, repairs, etc. As you wisely point out, the terms I just used need to be specifically defined within the appraisal. He says that so far, his appraisals have passed muster with his client's insurance claims. Perhaps I need to ask him for testimonials to that affect. I also have calls to 2 other ASA appraisers. Also… there are professional restorers out there who have restored vintage trailers on spec, and would indeed have records and documentation of work done as well as selling price. I would think that would be a valid resource for creating 'comparable' evaluations of other restored trailers by appraisers. BTW, John… have you ever had to put one of those three appraisals to the test with an insurance claim?
My short answer would be NO, thankfully not, as none has yet been damaged. But I did speak with some regional reps. for the AAA Agreed Value program, and they personally knew the appraiser that I used, and specifically said they would accept his documentation in any claim without any challenges because they knew the lengths he went to arrive at a fair valuation on a specialty, and "usually not replaceable" vehicle. How ever, they were not allowed to write Agreed Value, only Stated Value on a travel trailer.
If I were an insurance company, I'm not sure I would insure vintage trailers either! There's just too many variables and no value documentation.
John, So it seems you did work around the appraisal issue to some extent by using an appraiser with top credentials and passing it under the nose of the insurance company, for some kind of validation and assurance. (Like: this appraisal is so thorough we'll accept it as the true trailer value… but still only as a "stated value" policy.) Well so far, the agent at American Adventure offered me "agreed value" through Progressive Insurance with a professional appraiser's paperwork to establish value. But agents are still just sales people, as you point out and not at all responsible for the claim outcome. So, this is still a work in progress. Maybe I need to do what you did and try to have the appraisal vetted by the underwriters in advance of me committing to the policy. That would at least be reassuring. I've had agents go to underwriters for me before to make sure that things are airtight with them. They're the ones that pay the claim. |
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 21, 2015 19:00:35 GMT -8
My short answer would be NO, thankfully not, as none has yet been damaged. But I did speak with some regional reps. for the AAA Agreed Value program, and they personally knew the appraiser that I used, and specifically said they would accept his documentation in any claim without any challenges because they knew the lengths he went to arrive at a fair valuation on a specialty, and "usually not replaceable" vehicle. How ever, they were not allowed to write Agreed Value, only Stated Value on a travel trailer.
If I were an insurance company, I'm not sure I would insure vintage trailers either! There's just too many variables and no value documentation.
John, So it seems you did work around the appraisal issue to some extent by using an appraiser with top credentials and passing it under the nose of the insurance company, for some kind of validation and assurance. (Like: this appraisal is so thorough we'll accept it as the true trailer value… but still only as a "stated value" policy.) Well so far, the agent at American Adventure offered me "agreed value" through Progressive Insurance with a professional appraiser's paperwork to establish value. But agents are still just sales people, as you point out and not at all responsible for the claim outcome. So, this is still a work in progress. Maybe I need to do what you did and try to have the appraisal vetted by the underwriters in advance of me committing to the policy. That would at least be reassuring. I've had agents go to underwriters for me before to make sure that things are airtight with them. They're the ones that pay the claim. In a past life............before I called myself retired, I was a service manager in a large motorsports dealership for six years. Five major brands carried, and up to 3000 units per year sold. Needless to say, two of our brands were Japanese, and we sold lots of Crotch Rocket Sport motorcycles. On any given day we had 10 or more insurance jobs working in our service department. I can honestly say all the insurance companies were great and fair to work with except one.........Progressive Insurance was always a huge PITA! They wanted to cut corners on every customers repair, and had the repaint prices set so low that not even their listed "preferred paint shops" would do the work for their established prices. Any policy is no better than the company that will be there when you have a claim. I would never consider this company for any kind of insurance based on my real life experience in working with them on a daily basis. |
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chametzoo
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 21, 2015 20:06:04 GMT -8
In a past life............before I called myself retired…. I would never consider this company for any kind of insurance based on my real life experience in working with them on a daily basis. John… how long ago was this past life? In any case, I'll take your experience as part of my collected information going forward. I've also had my own experiences with insurance companies and the performance of any given company sometimes changes with different management and market conditions. Certainly, if Progressive still operates like you describe, I would avoid the possible hassle. But I'll also be researching what current market experiences with Progressive have been as well. To start… has anybody here made vintage trailer claims with Progressive lately? Thanks again. |
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Jan 22, 2015 9:08:05 GMT -8
In a past life............before I called myself retired…. I would never consider this company for any kind of insurance based on my real life experience in working with them on a daily basis. John… how long ago was this past life? In any case, I'll take your experience as part of my collected information going forward. I've also had my own experiences with insurance companies and the performance of any given company sometimes changes with different management and market conditions. Certainly, if Progressive still operates like you describe, I would avoid the possible hassle. But I'll also be researching what current market experiences with Progressive have been as well. To start… has anybody here made vintage trailer claims with Progressive lately? Thanks again. They have to cover FLO's big salary, and pay for all of her TV Ad's, and still make a profit I guess? LOL |
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Post by chametzoo on Jan 22, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -8
They have to cover FLO's big salary, and pay for all of her TV Ad's, and still make a profit I guess? LOL Ok… Congratulations: your 1000th post.  |
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Post by chametzoo on Feb 6, 2015 10:30:58 GMT -8
An update to this always sticky issue of 'agreed value' insurance for restored vintage trailers:
I can safely say I've found a good route to go with on this. FCIS in Iowa is a good agent to start with. They have people in their office who you can talk to and know how to deal with the insurance company and have real experience with vintage trailer claims. Tony Reynolds is a good person there to start your insurance conversation with. The insurance company almost always is going to be Progressive and their policies are definitely written as 'agreed value'. There are a couple of other companies, but they have strict requirements (i.e. trailer must be locked in a garage, etc.). An appraisal is a MUST. Some agents (like American Adventure) will tell you that you don't need one, but then the insurance company will turn to NADA value for your '59 Shasta's total loss! Good luck with that. I think American Adventure is more geared toward the late model RV business. A good certified professional appraiser is Jim Polk of Polk Assoicates in Ojai, CA. FCIS knows him and his work and he has lots of experience with evaluating our type of trailers. He was recommended to me by a great trailer restorer, Denny Stone of So. Cal Trailer Design. Jim's fees are reasonable as well and he's very helpful. FCIS says they have had excellent experience with claims through Progressive and with appraisals done in advance.
I hope this all helps...
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