ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 18, 2014 8:47:44 GMT -8
little history. new to vintage trailer, not new to vintage camping-my old rig we had to sell cause of not enough seatbelts- old campernot new to towing-been towing for 30 years. everything-car trailers, farm equip... etc... tow rig I used for my first ever tow with our 'new' trailer- truck and trailer
truck is 1950 chevy on 1981 waggy chassis 4x4. wieghs 4,000# trailer is 1964? forester 16' that(unverified) wieghs under 2,000 I tow with my truck all the time-car trailer with usually a CGVW of 9,000 or more. 5k of trailer +4k of truck yepthisismylife.blogspot.com/2014/02/overwieght.html
yepthisismylife.blogspot.com/2014/04/2875-of-road-base.html
yepthisismylife.blogspot.com/2014/05/82502000.htmlcar trailer has brakes and truck has controller. camp trailer has brakes that work. first trip out-i was stalled out at about 50 before some serious wagging. occasionally up to 55mph it felt strongly that the rear of trailer was too heavy inducing the wag. we had loaded all camping gear in the front area... so after a weekend of thinking about it. I measured from ball to CL of wheel and from CL of wheel to rear of trailer and CL of wheel to front of trailer body. i also measured my modern brand new car trailer ratios.(it pulls so perfect-i never even know its there) what I found was that the camp trailer has over 40% of length behind CL of wheel. car hauler has only 15% using a hitch extension will not change the pivot point to CL ratio. my next option is to measure a ton of modern same size trailers and get a ratio and then wiegh/meausre my trailer and extend the whole tongue. thoughts? any measurements to compare? ideas?
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Post by bigbill on Jun 18, 2014 10:46:11 GMT -8
The length in front or behind the axle is of no importance. The important thing is the tongue weight you should have a minimum of 10% of your total loaded weight on the tongue/hitch. Next thing that causes sway can be tires, to light duty for load, under inflated, or just plain bad. Finally if your trailer suspension is wore out that can cause problems. The tongue length from axle to coupler won't cause sway, but a shorter tongue length does make it harder to back the trailer. Axle placement on a truck or a freight trailer is important to try to keep load in balance do to changing cargo weights, but a camper is not that variable under normal conditions. Although they can be loaded wrong to cause problems. camper problems are usually caused either by everything being loaded in rear or someone redesigned the liquid tank location or size and /or battery location. A friend of mine loaded the back storage compartment of his trailer with a few cement blocks to use to level it when he got to the lake and made it impossible to tow until he moved part of them to the front. One more thing your hitch should be set up to tow the trailer level, towing tongue high can also cause problems.
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Post by vikx on Jun 18, 2014 22:00:02 GMT -8
Big Bill has touched on most of the things that cause wag. My first thought was the tires.
Also check the trailer and the bolts holding the body on the frame. An easy way to see if it's "tight" is to have a helper or two wiggle the body while you're checking underneath, at the tongue, etc. You'll see if the frame stays still and the body moves... If it does, it will cause major wag and sway.
Do you know of any PO modifications on the trailer?
Since your truck chassis is older, it may have some wear that you weren't aware of.
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John Palmer
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Hi, From a vintage trailer guy located in Santa Ana, CA. It's good to see lots of activity here.
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Post by John Palmer on Jun 19, 2014 5:46:37 GMT -8
The length in front or behind the axle is of no importance. The important thing is the tongue weight you should have a minimum of 10% of your total loaded weight on the tongue/hitch. Next thing that causes sway can be tires, to light duty for load, under inflated, or just plain bad. Finally if your trailer suspension is wore out that can cause problems. The tongue length from axle to coupler won't cause sway, but a shorter tongue length does make it harder to back the trailer. Axle placement on a truck or a freight trailer is important to try to keep load in balance do to changing cargo weights, but a camper is not that variable under normal conditions. Although they can be loaded wrong to cause problems. camper problems are usually caused either by everything being loaded in rear or someone redesigned the liquid tank location or size and /or battery location. A friend of mine loaded the back storage compartment of his trailer with a few cement blocks to use to level it when he got to the lake and made it impossible to tow until he moved part of them to the front. One more thing your hitch should be set up to tow the trailer level, towing tongue high can also cause problems. X2, Nailed it again! LOL
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 19, 2014 7:10:03 GMT -8
The length in front or behind the axle is of no importance. The important thing is the tongue weight you should have a minimum of 10% of your total loaded weight on the tongue/hitch. Next thing that causes sway can be tires, to light duty for load, under inflated, or just plain bad. Finally if your trailer suspension is wore out that can cause problems. The tongue length from axle to coupler won't cause sway, but a shorter tongue length does make it harder to back the trailer. Axle placement on a truck or a freight trailer is important to try to keep load in balance do to changing cargo weights, but a camper is not that variable under normal conditions. Although they can be loaded wrong to cause problems. camper problems are usually caused either by everything being loaded in rear or someone redesigned the liquid tank location or size and /or battery location. A friend of mine loaded the back storage compartment of his trailer with a few cement blocks to use to level it when he got to the lake and made it impossible to tow until he moved part of them to the front. One more thing your hitch should be set up to tow the trailer level, towing tongue high can also cause problems. I made modifications to my hitch before i ever towed it to make sure it was level or really darn close. theres a water tank but its under front bench seat(not full or filled) no battery, propane in front right next to coupler. I dont have really anything more than a cast iron fry pan under the rear seat. I DI look at tires last night and saw RADIAL on teh sidewall-thats gonna change!!! dangit. I was just astounded by how much wieght ratio was BEHIND the axle. It just seemed like it lent itself to being suceptible to being 'wagable' especially comparing to any modern trailer. especially the cargo/box trailers. as far as the truck chassis-it is heavily duty with rear air helper bags and stiff and in superior condition. without the trailer is a corner-turning, load carrying monster with new shocks and zero swaggle. the car trailer does NOT waggle at all-loaded or empty or any condition.
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 19, 2014 7:17:23 GMT -8
Big Bill has touched on most of the things that cause wag. My first thought was the tires. Also check the trailer and the bolts holding the body on the frame. An easy way to see if it's "tight" is to have a helper or two wiggle the body while you're checking underneath, at the tongue, etc. You'll see if the frame stays still and the body moves... If it does, it will cause major wag and sway. Do you know of any PO modifications on the trailer? Since your truck chassis is older, it may have some wear that you weren't aware of. Thanks to all-this is really helpful. I think the tires will make a difference, im gonna add a sway control system-at least teh shock thing(looks like PO had one) I dont believe trailer has been modified at all regarding frame or axle. I also believe trailer body is firmly attached. PO kept it inside a shop when not in use. looks real cared for. underside looks 'okay' actualyl pretty good for 1964 OEM. I did notice spring bushings toast. I mean TOAST. So I think theres some compounding errors going on. tires spring bushings add sway control....
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Post by bigbill on Jun 19, 2014 8:20:40 GMT -8
ccpanel It sounds like you are on the right track, as far as radials go if they are trailer or truck tires of heavy enough load rating to carry your load plus a safety margin (I like 50% or more) and they are inflated to the max pressure shown on the sidewall they should be better than a bias tire (if no belts are damaged). If they are automobile tires take them off and replace with proper tires that are designed for trailers. Yes you need to replace any and all worn parts in the trailer suspension. As far as the sway control I would get it towing properly then add the sway control, they are designed to reduce the affect of cross winds and passing semis not basic sway.
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Post by vikx on Jun 19, 2014 8:30:40 GMT -8
Once the trailer is sound, sway controls help. Your truck seems beefy enough not to need one, but it won't hurt.
Friends were towing a 64 Aladdin across country with a Toyota SUV and were getting big time sway. Once the bar was installed, they were good to go...
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 28, 2014 19:17:47 GMT -8
So-update.
tried towing with 1999 durango with 5.9 auto 4x4. Im sure its heavier than my 1950.
trip was exactly same route to same destination. sway was unchanged.
I tried loading over 300# extra load as far forward in trailer as possible-basically in bins against front wall. trailer radial tires inflated to 50#(max pressure) towing attitude-within a hair of perfectly level.
zero change.
and the other thing-this thing tows like it wieghs 6,000#-it does NOT!
I tow regularly with my car trailer and have towed many other kinds of trailers. I generally tow between 1500(empty) and 8,000(loaded)
this thing tows like a dog and the waggle is insane!
i will try a sway control system next(cruising craigslist) but I would MUCH rather fix the inherent problem so I am SERIOUSLY considering adding 2' to tongue and then installing my water tank, 2 batteries(no batteries currently), storage for my scisor jacks, and general storage onto the tongue in front of the body.
Not thrilled.
Sad.
max speed with white knuckles 55mph. normal comfortable speed about 40mph... not okay!
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 28, 2014 19:31:34 GMT -8
ccpanel It sounds like you are on the right track, as far as radials go if they are trailer or truck tires of heavy enough load rating to carry your load plus a safety margin (I like 50% or more) and they are inflated to the max pressure shown on the sidewall they should be better than a bias tire (if no belts are damaged). If they are automobile tires take them off and replace with proper tires that are designed for trailers. Yes you need to replace any and all worn parts in the trailer suspension. As far as the sway control I would get it towing properly then add the sway control, they are designed to reduce the affect of cross winds and passing semis not basic sway. They are trailer rated radials. sidewall says 1750 pounds per tire. trailer under 2,000# I am still convinced that axle location is a major factor. Taking it to extremes if you had 10% of trailer wieght on tongue but had 75% of wieght behind axle-the mass would make it waggle... I think I am going to fab a quick longer tongue(leaving original) and see if it matters.(loading simulated load onto to imitate my tank/batteries/accessories) it would be nice to have extra storage anyway.
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Post by bigbill on Jun 28, 2014 19:43:36 GMT -8
If it is pulling hard have you pulled the hubs and repacked both inner and outer wheel bearings? Another thought is a brake dragging. Third thought is axle bent causing extra drag do to toe in or out. I would check all of these things out then if problem still exists have someone follow behind to see if they can spot anything weird going on. also is your electric brakes cross feeding power causing the problem do to a short or miss wired or are they adjusted wrong. at this stage I am just guessing since I can't see it in person. ALSO you mentioned bad spring bushings did you get them all replaced. Another thing to check out and this is really rare but I have seen it, is the frame cracked or flexing at the front of the trailer because of rust or metal fatigue?
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Post by bigbill on Jun 28, 2014 20:08:52 GMT -8
Quote ccpanel "I am still convinced that axle location is a major factor. Taking it to extremes if you had 10% of trailer wieght on tongue but had 75% of wieght behind axle-the mass would make it waggle...
I think I am going to fab a quick longer tongue(leaving original) and see if it matters.(loading simulated load onto to imitate my tank/batteries/accessories)
it would be nice to have extra storage anyway."
If any weight more than 50 % behind axle you would have negative tongue weight because the axle is the balance pivot. Making the tongue longer won't affect the tongue weight more than the weight of the added metal. The trailer towed right when it was new so something has changed to cause your problem.either weight has been removed from the tongue/front or added to the rear. The first thing to do before adding length to the tongue is get a set of bathroom scales and weigh the tongue, assuming the trailer weighs 2000 lb you need 200 lb on tongue. I am not arguing with you I am just trying to help you avoid a serious accident. I have been building custom trailers for over 50 years and have never designed one that wouldn't tow as it should, this includes everything from small utility trailers to semi trailers. I have no problem with you adding all the length you want to the tongue or sway bars but I think you need to discover what is causing your problem before you try to mask it for your and your families safety. Also if you have a bad belt in one the tires that could be causing your problem. Hope some of this helps.
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 29, 2014 8:06:59 GMT -8
If it is pulling hard have you pulled the hubs and repacked both inner and outer wheel bearings? Another thought is a brake dragging. Third thought is axle bent causing extra drag do to toe in or out. I would check all of these things out then if problem still exists have someone follow behind to see if they can spot anything weird going on. also is your electric brakes cross feeding power causing the problem do to a short or miss wired or are they adjusted wrong. at this stage I am just guessing since I can't see it in person. ALSO you mentioned bad spring bushings did you get them all replaced. Another thing to check out and this is really rare but I have seen it, is the frame cracked or flexing at the front of the trailer because of rust or metal fatigue? previous owner seemed very competent and told me all bearings were packed/maintained before sale. axle bent may be issue but tires are not new and appear to be wearing properly/evenly. real sure brakes arent dragging-used temp gun and my hand after long pulls and niether drum is hot. no spring bushings yet. frame NOT cracked/bent. its in very good condition, minor minor surface rust. was considering adding extra bracing.
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jun 29, 2014 8:10:44 GMT -8
Quote ccpanel "I am still convinced that axle location is a major factor. Taking it to extremes if you had 10% of trailer wieght on tongue but had 75% of wieght behind axle-the mass would make it waggle... I think I am going to fab a quick longer tongue(leaving original) and see if it matters.(loading simulated load onto to imitate my tank/batteries/accessories) it would be nice to have extra storage anyway." If any weight more than 50 % behind axle you would have negative tongue weight because the axle is the balance pivot. Making the tongue longer won't affect the tongue weight more than the weight of the added metal. The trailer towed right when it was new so something has changed to cause your problem.either weight has been removed from the tongue/front or added to the rear. The first thing to do before adding length to the tongue is get a set of bathroom scales and weigh the tongue, assuming the trailer weighs 2000 lb you need 200 lb on tongue. I am not arguing with you I am just trying to help you avoid a serious accident. I have been building custom trailers for over 50 years and have never designed one that wouldn't tow as it should, this includes everything from small utility trailers to semi trailers. I have no problem with you adding all the length you want to the tongue or sway bars but I think you need to discover what is causing your problem before you try to mask it for your and your families safety. Also if you have a bad belt in one the tires that could be causing your problem. Hope some of this helps. Along with longer tongue was going to move water tank to tongue area, add 2 batteries, add storage boxes for my jacks, and add other heavy things to that area in front of body and on new longer tongue. I agree STRONGLY about finding the issue before adding bandaids... ! considering new tires "just becuase" current tires trailer rated radials. considering a bigger rim with a heavier capacity tire with heavier sidewalls. I dont think tire capacity is an issue with current tires. need to accuratly wiegh trailer and tongue and go from there. this is WONDERFUL advice and very helpful getting to bounce ideas off competent people. THank you!
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ccpanel
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Post by ccpanel on Jul 11, 2014 20:34:04 GMT -8
so wieghed tongue
it was 235# I took box off back of trailer and now tongue is 275#
there is no way this trailer wieghs 2,350# let alone #2,750#
plus last time i towed-i had an easy 200# of firewood in a box inside body right agaistn front tongue wall... had to have added at least the 40# of tongue wieght...
will tow tomorrow and see.
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