icon3000
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'64 Shasta Compact
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Post by icon3000 on Apr 23, 2014 7:06:19 GMT -8
Hey guys I have a kind of 911 Tow wiring issue. I fully updated all of my tow wiring on my '63 Shasta Compact to a 7-way plug junction box (in case I ever decide to upgrade) and 4-way tow wiring: www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0044YQAPW/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000E7BBL6/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1The issue is the ground wire (white) is the only wire that generates light. Running and tail lights (brown) does nothing. Right and left turn (yellow and green) do generate the blinker; however, only if they are connected to the same wire as the ground. Also when applying the breaks the lights dim instead of brightening.. I attached the box and wiring based on, well.. what's written on the box and the wiring lol. Then confirmed it on vikx's 7-way thread. This is the 7-way junction box connector to the 4-way wiring Grounded to frame Ground (white) generates lights, Tail (brown) does nothing, Left Turn (yellow) will blink only when combined with the ground. mounted on the backing from VTS (looks pretty good vts) Same issue on Curb side, Right Turn (green) only blinks if combined with the ground Running lights are generating no power to the bulb (this is street side, had an idea to connect blinker to the bulb along with the tail lights, still yet to see if that can work out) Other details: when the white and brown wires touch they create spark and the brown starts burning.. makes me assume there is power coming through the tail lights (brown) cord. Does anyone have advice for troubleshooting this issue? I am at a loss and I am kind of on a time crunch so hoping I can get some insight. Let me know if any more information could help. Thank you all
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Post by bigbill on Apr 23, 2014 8:26:30 GMT -8
You don't have a complete ground circuit most likely. Make sure the trailer is grounded to the tow vehicle, you may have to run a ground wire from the trailer to the tow vehicle. if this doesn't solve your problem then you have to make sure that you all your trailer lights are properly grounded. Remember that the alum skin has to have a bonding strap to the frame if you are using it for a ground conductor. I personally like to run individual ground wires to every light fixture when I am rewiring a trailer as this eliminates almost all problems. A trailer is some what like a fiberglass car.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 23, 2014 8:30:57 GMT -8
You have a grounding issue.
The current is feeding back trying to seek a ground, is why it's acting weird. Disconnect all of the trailer wiring at the seven way junction box, and then test the lighting system "to that point" using your test light.
Then take a long jumper on your test light, and go to your lights and test for continuity of the hot wires. Does your white trailer ground wire "go to every light"?
I just do not understand why someone would "upgrade to a seven wire system", then "wire it with four way colors", unless you were trying to give the future tech's a hard time when trouble shooting a simple problem?
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soup
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Post by soup on Apr 23, 2014 14:24:19 GMT -8
Yes agree as stated by all above. Also must be hooked to ball/hitch of tow vehicle when testing. Also a good glob of grease on the ball hitch will help with grounding if no ground wire to tow vehicle is present.
Also just easy to leave it 7 wire and just get a 4 flat adapter at walmart for temporary use until you wire brakes and emergency break away box up.
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icon3000
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Post by icon3000 on Apr 23, 2014 18:31:28 GMT -8
Does your white trailer ground wire "go to every light"? I just do not understand why someone would "upgrade to a seven wire system", then "wire it with four way colors", unless you were trying to give the future tech's a hard time when trouble shooting a simple problem? John: will do on all the testing directly at the 7-way box Ground wire goes to both tail lights, but not the running lights. Is this typically an issue? The 7 to 4 was honestly a rookie mistake. When I purchased the 100' spool of 4-way I assumed the colors would be the same as the 7 just missing the other 3.. not so much. Honestly I think that's an industry fault. Either way when I realized my mistake I didn't want to back track. Lesson learned for others. Soup: the trailer wasn't on the ball hitch when I was testing the lights, good call. I'll get back to you all after testing
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Post by bigbill on Apr 23, 2014 19:19:50 GMT -8
Icon3000 I didn't want to hurt your feelings by telling you that the hitch had to be fastened, that is why i just mentioned the ground path to the tow vehicle. as far as the clearance lights go if they are grounded to the trailer skin and the skin is bonded to the frame and the frame is bonded into your ground circuit they should work. The thing to remember is that any time you have a dim light in a DC system or lights other than the ones you have on glowing dim you have a ground problem. The power is trying to seek an alternate path back to ground. Hope every bodies info helps you solve your problem.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 23, 2014 21:58:16 GMT -8
Trying to give accurate advice about an electrical problem on any forum, is like taking your dog to the vet. Doc, he's acting funny, "I don't know why, I guess you have to ask him where it hurts".
The reason you want to disconnect the trailer wires at the seven way junction box is so you can start your diagnostic test in a systematic order of elimination. Place the ground clip of your test light on the ground terminal in the seven way box and start to check your circuits "to the box". If you have Tail/Stop/Right/Left/Battery working at the box then you have just determined that the tow vehicle wiring, and the seven way plug is wired correctly all the way "to the box" mounted on the trailer. You should also have a hot "battery" terminal for charging your trailer battery at the seven way box. If everything is OK to this point then (and only then) can you start to test the trailer systems.
You don't need to hook up your brakes (a blue wire), or your break away switch if you don't have them installed yet. Just terminate the wire colors in the seven way box. Don't mess with a four way plug, or a four way to seven way adapter, it's not needed.
The industry trailer four way colors, and the seven way colors have not changed in the fifty years that I have been doing automotive wiring. It's just different for the two systems, and I would advise to not use the four way pattern, and just use the seven way because it will adapt to what we need on a travel trailer. It's OK if you don't need every seven way terminal currently. I have never used all the pockets on my Levi's 501's either! LOL
The white wire is ground, it is the ground for your trailer, and also the same ground for your tow vehicle. If you had a good ground during the above circuit test of the seven way box, it is not necessary to have the trailer connected, or a greased trailer ball for a good ground connection. The only time these band aids are necessary is if the ground was not hooked up properly during the initial vehicle wiring. 99% of all 12v electrical problems are due to bad grounds. That's why BigBill, and I are so anal about running a separate ground wire to every accessory. A little extra ground wire eliminates the "many" problems associated with using the skin as a ground. It was just a cheap thing the trailer factories did to save some money.
Hope this helps, if not "never mind".
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pirateslife
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Post by pirateslife on Apr 24, 2014 16:30:05 GMT -8
Like vikx said, it's best if you have an extra battery to test. I used an unwired 4 way vehicle end to plug into the 4 way. Then grounded the white to the batt neg and tested each wire individually. You actually didn't go wrong with the large junction box. I used the same. I ran ground wire to each and every light. Even used 12 ga for ground, 14 gauge for all lights. This takes up the first 4 slots. While running my wires on the frame, I taped them with electric tape all the way and added a 10 ga blue from the axel to the junction box for future brakes. . There's 5 slots, then if you have 12 volt lights or outlets in the camper, you will need a 12v hot coming from the battery of the tow vehicle. This will be tied into the box as well, 6 slots. Given the surface area of the 7 way blade vs 6 pin, I prefer the 7 way for more reliable connection and current flow.
also, when using 4 way bonded wire, care must be taken when separating it, it's easy to expose bare wire yeap I done it and had to back up.
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icon3000
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Post by icon3000 on Apr 25, 2014 7:46:57 GMT -8
Thank you all for advice thus far. So bare with me while I seek some clarification. I attached the 7-way tow vehicle recepticle and wired it with 4 way wiring (only wire i have, give me a break lol) [yellow to red, green to brown, brown to green, white to white] And improved the ground by cleaning the surface and creating connection from the frame to the skin I tested wiring using Vikx method below with no change. I think I can improve my testing method however. As a note, I don't currently have a battery attached. I have a couple questions: Bigbill: don't worry about my feelings, humility is my strong suit John: do you have any pics of what testing the lights "at the box" looks like? Do I need to have a ground wire connected to the light AS WELL AS the hotwire? Pirate and others: a lot of you mention running a ground wire to every light.. what is the best methodology for this? (this is going to be a very rookie question) Should I: 1. Have a ground wire coming from the box to each light 2. Continually split the ground wire at each light and connect all the way through? (like a hot wire) 3. run a short ground wire from each individual light to the skin? 3 seems the most likely, and if this is the case, how do I attach the ground to the skin? electric tape? Pirate: you also mention using different gauges for the ground.. is my 16 gauge going to be enough for this project? I'll continue to update
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 25, 2014 7:57:53 GMT -8
Sorry, You have lost me.
In general for electricity to work, it has to flow from the source (like a battery), to the accessory (a light in this case), and then BACK to the source (we call it a ground) for anything to work.
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Post by bigbill on Apr 25, 2014 18:43:03 GMT -8
DC power must flow from the positive side of a battery to the negative side or you have no power. Before this kicks off a discussion as to which way the power actually flows ,it doesn't matter as long as the lights are connected in a complete circuit hooked to both the positive and negative. I like a ground wire hooked to each light and ran all the way back to the tow vehicle. This insures a good ground where as using the skin the current must flow from panel to panel and as these seams get old and dirty sometimes they work and sometimes not. ALL your lights can most likely be hooked to the same 16 ga wire for the ground. Some lights have a ground wire and some lights ground through the mounting screws on those just hook the ground wire under the mounting screw head that has the metal strip going to the bulb socket. I usually run one ground wire from the rear bundled with the hot wires to a terminal box like you have, then run a separate ground wire to the front clearance lights I think that is easier and neater.All this is clear as mud Right. Just keep asking questions till you understand.
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Post by vikx on Apr 25, 2014 22:18:51 GMT -8
Can you describe what happened when you tested via my method?
1. Battery grounded to the trailer frame. 2. Disconnect all wiring at the box. That way you can isolate each tow circuit: TM, RT, LT. 3. Connect the trailer Tail and Marker light wire (TM) to a jump wire and touch the jump to the battery hot side. What happens? Disconnect. 4. Continue with RT and LT, individually. What happens?
Your 4 way wiring is correct to 7 way. Glad to see that. Grounds are excellent.
The tails have two bulbs and 3 wires. Two of the wires are TM running lights. The other is the Turn/Brake. The fact that your tails are dimming when the brakes are applied leads me to think that the tail wires are mixed up. Keep in mind that there usually is no ground wire on the tail lights. All three are Hot. Two TM, one Turn. If one of those wire is connected to ground, you will have all sorts of interesting problems...
Also, there might be a short to ground somewhere. Could the white wire have been accidentally connected to one of the hot wires? A wayward screw? A staple??
If you isolate the wires at the box (disconnect) and nothing works properly, you may have to disconnect the lights and try one at a time. If I were trouble shooting this, I would test the wiring with the lights disconnected. See if you have hot to TM at each location. That will indicate the TM circuit is working properly. Continue with RT and LT.
I hope this helps.
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Post by vikx on Apr 26, 2014 7:54:12 GMT -8
CORRECTION:
I apologize for any confusion in my above post. I had forgotten you connected the 7 way Green to the 4 way Brown at the box. When I use a 4 way ribbon, it's green to green, brown to brown and yellow to red. Less chance of a mix up that way.
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John Palmer
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Post by John Palmer on Apr 26, 2014 9:36:37 GMT -8
Before we diagnose this subject any further, we need some answers to questions already asked.
The color of the wires really does not matter, the electricity does not know what color of the insulation is, it's only to help the "poor tech" working on the system.
First disconnect "all the trailer wires" from the seven way box. Connect the seven way plug to the car/truck, and connect the seven way wires to the correct color terminal inside the box. Then report back what your test light told you. You should have the following results.
WHITE TERMINAL should give you a good ground for your test light for the following checks, if not you have a vehicle problem that needs to be corrected first.
BLUE TERMINAL (is optional) should work if you apply brakes, and also have a brake controller.
GREEN TERMINAL is your running lights and should work when you turn the vehicle headlights on.
BLACK TERMINAL (is optional) is a battery power source, should be hot, or may require the vehicle to be running if it has a safety relay as does my F150 with factory tow package.
RED TERMINAL should work for left turn signal, and also for stop lights
BROWN TERMINAL should work for right turn signal, and also for stop lights
YELLOW TERMINAL (is optional) and is seldom used for our applications. It could be used for back up lights for example.
"After you determine" if the vehicle systems are working correctly, you can continue to trouble shoot the wiring in the trailer. Using a separate battery is a good idea. Use a long ground wire to bypass all the grounds in the trailer, then you will know if you have a grounding problem or a power source problem. If you think in terms of elimination, and do the checks in a systematic order it's not difficult. Remember, when you find it, it's always something very easy to fix, and was likely staring you in the face all the time.
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Post by vikx on Apr 26, 2014 21:59:01 GMT -8
Thank you John for the additional info!
I just installed two tail lights today and upon testing, NOTHING WORKED. Duh: I forgot to connect the hot jump wire to the battery hot....
Thankfully, I love working on wiring and electrical stuff. LOL.
Triple check those tail lights.
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