oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 23, 2018 16:00:44 GMT -8
I installed a Progressive PD4045KA converter. I've already installed 12v lights, which are wired to the converter and fused. The converter/12v side runs through a breaker on the 120v side, as the instructions show. The lights work fine.
I have a bus bar outside the converter where all 12v grounds are attached. The converter ground is also connected to this bus bar. I read that 120v ground and 12v ground should both be ground to the chassis. So I also ran a wire from the 120v ground bus (which is inside the converter housing) to the same bus bar outside the housing. So 120v ground, 12v grounds, and converter ground all go to the same bus bar. The bus bar then is grounded to the frame/chassis of the trailer. Confirmed continuity between ground prong of main inlet cord to 12v ground bus bar. I don't have a battery installed.
Ok, hopefully that's correct? Anyways, I'm now wiring in 120v outlets in series. At one of them there are 2 Romex ends that I'm wiring to an outlet. When the 2 ground wires touch, there's a spark. Makes no sense to me.
I disconnected the ground that connects the 120v ground bus bar to the 12v bus bar, and no spark happens now.
Was this my problem? Should the grounds of both 120v and 12v be shared?
Edit: reconnected the ground wire, and measured the voltage across the 2 Romex grounds at the outlet location, and got 13.65v. I have no idea how this is happening, the 12v wires and Romex are very different, it's not like I accidentally wired them together. Also the breaker for the outlet circuit is open. The problem has to be connecting the 120v ground bar and 12v ground bar, right?
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gary350
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Post by gary350 on Oct 23, 2018 17:16:43 GMT -8
This would be easy if you could make a circuit drawing and upload it here.
I would not connect battery 12v to the 120v wire.
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oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 23, 2018 17:53:20 GMT -8
Best I can do for diagram at the moment, but this is the same converter I have. Only difference is mine doesn't have a bus bar for the black/hot wires, I have them wired directly into breakers. The "shore power in" green wire and "ac ground to conv" green wire are on the same bus bar. Am I supposed to also ground this to the chassis? Edit: in this thread vintagetrailertalk.freeforums.net/thread/10174/12v-groundingI was told that both 120v and 12v should be grounded to the frame. I thought it would be just as well to ground them together (on a bus bar) and run that to the frame with 1 wire. Not sure how that would be any different than having them both grounded to the frame separately.
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Post by vikx on Oct 23, 2018 20:39:55 GMT -8
Even tho the frame is the common ground for both systems, the grounds for each system should be entirely separate. Never connect the AC system to the 12 volt system when wiring. Yes the ground bar should also have a ground to the frame.
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oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 24, 2018 2:15:16 GMT -8
If the frame is a conductor, how does that make a difference? I don't understand how that works.
I'll give it a shot, I'm just trying to grasp the details on why.
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charliemyers
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Post by charliemyers on Oct 24, 2018 5:19:21 GMT -8
Here's a troubleshooting manual for your converter: www.progressivedyn.com/pdfs/PD4045-TROUBLESHOOTING.pdfAnd an installation/operating guide: www.progressivedyn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/110145-English-Only.pdfAre you sure that you connected the 120VAC ground (green wire) to the 12VDC ground buss bar (likely all white wires)? What color are the Romex wires that are producing the spark? To create a spark, those wires have to have a voltage differential AND something on that circuit drawing current. Oh, and you don't wire 120V outlets/fixtures/etc in series...they're all wired in parallel. Black (hot) to black, white (neutral) to white, and green or bare (ground) to green or bare. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding of terms, but I wanted to clarify that. I have more I'd like to add regarding using the buss bar to bond the 120VAC ground to the 12VDC ground, but I'm waiting for a response from an electrician friend of mine before I post it publicly. For now suffice it to say that I suspect that's not causing your problem, although I could be wrong.
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oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 24, 2018 5:43:34 GMT -8
My romex has black/white/bare. I connected the 120VAC ground (bare wire, in my case) bus to the 12VDC ground bus bar (which then is connected to the frame). My 12VDC wires are black and red, black for ground, red for hot. All the 12VDC black wires are on the same bus. Those are just the colors I bought.
I'm just misunderstanding the terms, I'm wiring in parallel as you describe.
I appreciate you reaching out to your friend!
One more point that might help, there is also a ground from the converter to the 12VDC ground bus (which is grounded to the frame). I wasn't sure if this suffices to ground the 120VAC. On the diagram above, you can see a green ground from shore power to a bus ("AC Neutral to Conv"), then a green ground from the bus to the converter ("AC Ground to Conv"), then black ground ("To Batt Neg"). Does this adequately ground 120VAC?
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charliemyers
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Post by charliemyers on Oct 24, 2018 6:19:12 GMT -8
All the 12VDC black wires are on the same bus. Those are just the colors I bought. Just to be clear, the 12VDC ground wire coming out of the converter is WHITE, so it should be the only white wire on the 12VDC ground buss. If you connected the 12VDC black wire coming out of the converter to the 12VDC ground buss that's outside of the converter, then you're pumping +12VDC into your entire ground system. One more point that might help, there is also a ground from the converter to the 12VDC ground bus (which is grounded to the frame). I wasn't sure if this suffices to ground the 120VAC. This is the wire that I mention above. Is it white or black? On the diagram above, you can see a green ground from shore power to a bus ("AC Neutral to Conv"...) In the diagram above, I think that the "AC Neutral to Conv" is pointing to the white wire that's connected to the bottom buss bar. This is a neutral and is not a ground. ...then a green ground from the bus to the converter ("AC Ground to Conv"), then black ground ("To Batt Neg"). Does this adequately ground 120VAC? In my opinion (I still haven't heard back from my friend), to ground the 120VAC to the chassis I'd run a bare or green wire from the top horizontal buss bar to the chassis. I'd use as heavy of a wire as you can fit into that buss bar. From the converter I would connect the 12VDC ground (white wire in the diagram) to the external 12VDC ground buss bar (with the rest of your black ground wires) (which would also be bonded to the chassis). Edit: Please note that although I feel that I have a reasonably good understanding of AC & DC electricity, I am not an electrician.
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oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 24, 2018 6:58:05 GMT -8
I may have misspoke (typed? whatever) on one of those wires. Working off of memory at the moment. I'll get home tonight and get the details, and try my best to make a legible wiring diagram including everything. Some pics, too. I should have already done this anyway, for my own reference (or for future owner).
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Post by vikx on Oct 24, 2018 20:40:29 GMT -8
Wiring can be really confusing. That is one reason we say keep the AC and 12 volt system SEPARATE. As said above, the color codes are different and the white wires are critical.
In a 110/120 system, the white is neutral (not ground) and should never be connected to a ground bar.
RULE: The AC neutrals are ALWAYS separate from the (bare copper or green) grounds in an RV. Always. In other words, neutral whites go on an isolated bus bar, copper or green on another. Isolated means insulated from any grounded metal parts of the breaker box.
Get your 110 system done and working.
And now for 12 volt: Years back, the grounds in a car were always black. Nowadays, they usually have a black stripe with some other color. If you have wired older vehicles, then you are programmed to consider black as a ground.
RVs are not (haven't been for some time) the same. THE GROUND IS USUALLY WHITE. Black is Hot. Yes, I've seen other color codes, but WHITE is the standard ground. I use White for ground and nothing else. That way, it's easy to tell which is ground.
Confusion: you can now see why wiring is difficult with two systems. You have white grounds in your 12 volt system. AND you have white neutrals in the 110 system... They should NEVER EVER be connected together.
Oh, and to add to the confusion, many 12 volt water pumps have a red hot wire and a black ground. OH JOY.
I think you will be able to rectify your connections with the information here. Be sure to ask questions.
We are here to help.
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oakback
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Post by oakback on Oct 25, 2018 4:41:36 GMT -8
All whites are together on their own bus, they don't connect to anything else, I just mistyped before. All grounds are together, on their separate (120vac/12vdc) bus bars. My 12v system doesn't have any white, only black and red, so that's easy enough. I wanted all grounds to be black or bare, every car I've worked on had black as ground. I've never worked on any RVs before. Frankly I'm hardly giving any thought to future owners, but I'll eventually have a book of info for future reference. Even if I don't sell, I'm sure I'll forget everything.
This wiring diagram is going to take awhile. Yesterday we started getting pieces of interior delivered, so we we've been busy with that (bed framing, cabinets, etc).
For now though, with that one wire removed (that attached the 120vac ground bus to the 12vdc ground bus), everything works perfectly, all wired according to the converter's instructions. All the outlets I've wired so far test great (I have an outlet tester) and show proper voltage on the DMM. The 12v switches and lights are working great as well, which is helpful in the dark.
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charliemyers
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Post by charliemyers on Oct 25, 2018 9:51:23 GMT -8
I'd use as heavy of a wire as you can fit into that buss bar. Actually after doing some reading in the National Electrical Code, part C of "551.56 Bonding of Non-Current-Carrying Metal Parts" specifically states that the Equipment Grounding Conductor "shall be 8 AWG copper minimum". Section 551 deals with "Recreational Vehicles and Recreational Vehicle Parks". The only exception that I could find that negates the need for the wire is if the distribution panel is directly fastened to the metal frame/chassis with metal fasteners (essentially bonding the panel to the chassis). FYI I found that the entire National Electric Code is available for reading for free. You just have to signup for a free account at www.nfpa.org.
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